Webinar Transcript: Pathway to Med School: High School Tips for Medical School Success

(This is a transcript of a webinar from August 2024, a recording of which you can find on our YouTube channel. Thank you again to Samantha Castro-Rico, Ivan Chan, and William Kerr for coming to share their personal thoughts and experiences surrounding their own pathways to med school!)

Elton Lin: All right, good evening, everybody! We are West Coast time… and so it’s five o’clock here; potentially, maybe, a different time zone from where you’re at. Excited to have everybody on… excited to finally get the group of panelists on together: med school students and aspiring med school students.

But just super excited to have a forum to talk about what it takes and what it looks like to apply to med school, to be admitted, and that entire journey… if you don’t mind, go ahead and go onto the chat… and I would love to hear where you are calling in from! 

[Some webinar attendees share their locations, including California, Minnesota and Texas.]

Elton Lin: Sam and Ivan, where are you at currently?

Ivan Chan: We’re in Milpitas, California right now.

Elton Lin: Milpitas? Sunny Milpitas, California—fantastic. And William, where are you at?

William Kerr: I’m currently in San Diego, sunny San Diego.

Elton Lin: San Diego. Okay, so far we have a lot of West Coast, a little bit of Minnesota, Cupertino… Houston, Texas… Dublin, East Bay, love it, love it… we’ve always had quite an array of people from all over the U.S., and occasionally from all over the world, so… excited to have everybody on, and good to have everybody from all over the U.S.!

Today’s topic is going to be about med school, and what high school students should be thinking about as they prepare to be med school applicants. And again, the reality here is that, for most high school students, you’re going to undergrad and you still have some time to really prepare and think about how and where you want to apply to med school. 

So there is some time, but I love that we’re having an opportunity to have this discussion early.

Maybe to share a couple of interesting data points that I found recently… since 2020, since the start of the pandemic, there’s been a 35% increase in applicants to many of the top med schools across the United States, but an 18% increase in total applicants. So there’s been an increase in interest and awareness. I think somebody was calling it “The Dr. Fauci Effect”, right, with regards to people’s—student’s interest in pursuing a medical career.

Admit rates—I don’t think there’s any surprise to this, but admit rates to the top medical schools (including Harvard, Stanford, University of Pennsylvania) have all hovered around one to two-and-a-half percent—super difficult to gain admission. 

And also what I found interesting is that most recently, there is a—52% of applicants were female, and 53% of admitted students were female, which is interesting, and there’s been notation of that flipping from 10+ years ago.

It’s kind of interesting that there’s been the shift, and that shift also exists in the undergraduate application process as well. So maybe if you’re a guy: might be a good thing in this process. [laughs] Let’s go, William.

Yeah, so with that being said, I’m super excited to have William Kerr, Ivan Chan, and Samantha Castro-Rico joining us today. I’m going to give them an opportunity to introduce themselves, but I just want to—maybe—quick thing: William and I have known each other for a long time, been a big fan of William, so I’m excited to have him on and to share his journey, but excited for all three of them to come on and really share their stories.

So as we get started, before we kind of dig into some of the nuts and bolts of medical school, applying, college majors, undergrads, all that kind of stuff: would you take a moment;introduce yourself; where you’re from; where you’re currently attending med school; or if you’re currently maybe applying, where you’re aiming to apply; and maybe some of your interests and background? If you don’t mind: take the opportunity.

Why don’t we start with Ivan?

Ivan Chan: Cool! Yeah, my name is Ivan, I’m from Milpitas, California… attended Milpitas High School, and then eventually Yale. And currently I’m going to—well, I’m going into my second year of medical school at the University of Pennsylvania Perelman School of Medicine. 

I think, as I’ve gone through college, I’ve kind of gotten really interested in health equity, in doing a lot of community health efforts, and so currently my specialty—or specialty of interest—is leaning towards primary care, leaning towards family medicine. But, you know, I think there’s still a lot of exploring to do, especially as this year, we’re going into clinical rotations, and so: trying to keep an open mind, and we’ll see where things go.

Samantha Castro-Rico: Similarly to Ivan—my name is Samantha, I’m also a second-year medical student. I am at the Pritzker School of Medicine, so the University of Chicago. I’m also originally from Chicago, so it’s nice to be back home.

I graduated from Yale with Ivan, and then I think—right now, I’m considering primary care as well. I like family medicine, but I also like obstetrics, so with family medicine, you can do additional fellowships where you can expand sort of the knowledge that—and the kind of sphere of practice that you have, and so considering that, and I think it feeds into my interest with community-based healthcare.

So: excited to talk about all of that.

William Kerr: And then lastly, for me, I actually just—fun fact, I’ve actually known Ivan for a long time, and kind of how we’re all together is that I played tennis with Ivan in high school, and you know, we’ve kept in contact ever since, and going down the similar path, it’s really been helpful to have older mentors through me. 

So a little bit about me: I’m also from Milpitas, and then I stayed in California, went to UCSD, and currently, I’m applying and I’m also working full-time in San Diego—I kind of stay down here—and I’m working in a federally-qualified health center and supporting low-income prenatal patients.

… and to add, my current interests are, also like Ivan and Sam, family medicine. I think there’s a wide scope of practice and there’s a lot you can do, and also maybe surgery, but there’s so much time to figure that out, so that’s where I’m at now.

Elton Lin: Awesome, awesome. Thank you guys so much. 

And maybe a quick note to those of you who are attending: if you have questions, go ahead and post them in the Q&A box, and Anthony—if you’ve been a part of our webinar series—Anthony will jump back on, and we’ll field all the questions at the end. But go ahead and post them there.

But yeah, thank you, William, Ivan, and Sam for sharing a little bit more. Maybe it’s a little bit of an intro, but wanted—maybe—just dig into a little bit of your story. I mean, certainly I worked with a lot of students for a lot of years, and I’ve had a lot of students tell me that they want to go to med school, and the percentage of students who end up making it, or who follow through on the… even up until the journey to apply, is fairly low. 

So let me ask you: what inspired you to pursue a career in medicine? When did you decide this was the right path for you? And maybe a little bit of your story of how you got here. I’ll open it up to any of [you] three, go ahead and jump in whenever you’re ready.

Samantha Castro-Rico: Yeah, I can start! So growing up—my family’s from Mexico, and we moved to the U.S. when I was about six. And throughout that big transition period, my parents didn’t have a lot of access to constant or consistent healthcare. Often, I was the person that would interpret for them during medical visits, and had to manage insurance and payment and finding doctors and specialists, things like that. And when I was pretty young, my dad had a very negative experience with the healthcare system, and so I always felt very distrustful of it.

But as I grew older, I went through high school, I started to be more interested in the role that I could play within healthcare to improve the care that patients like my parents received.

So I went through college… I was a volunteer for a free clinic that Yale has, where we serve predominantly Spanish-speaking patients, similar to my parents, that were uninsured, and really cemented this idea [for me] of what healthcare could mean, and the role that I could play.

So: continued to explore that in addition to, you know, my coursework, and a lot of social justice-based work, where I felt that healthcare was a good area where I could treat physical ailments, but at the same time, treat a lot of social vulnerabilities that my family has had to go through, but also a lot of the communities that I hope to serve in the future.

I’m hoping to continue doing that in primary care, and as I go through medical school, but I think, ultimately, my family and their experience with the U.S. healthcare system and its inequities has really driven me to see a path in medicine.

Elton Lin: Awesome. Thank you, Sam.

Ivan Chan: Yeah, that’s really great.

I think it’s interesting because—I feel like, for me, I didn’t really have a clear image of whether I wanted to do medicine, even up until probably my sophomore year of college. I think there were a lot of things—I feel like when you’re young, it’s a really big investment to make, because you have to think, you know, eight, ten years in the future, like, “this is what I want to do.” You have to set yourself up in order to get there. And it sometimes can feel like it’s a really big investment, or a really big plan, in order to have that very concrete future. 

So for me, I feel like I’ve spent a lot of time throughout college kind of exploring these different paths that I wanted to take. 

Similar to Sam, we—I also had some family experiences with the healthcare system that kind of—well, my family relies more on traditional medicine, my family’s pretty Chinese, and so they’re very traditional medicine-oriented, and so we don’t really go to the doctor’s too often. Like when I’d get sick, when I was in elementary school, middle school, high school, most of the time, if it wasn’t anything like [an] emergency, you wouldn’t go to the doctor’s.

So it wasn’t really something that I knew that I wanted to do for sure in my first couple years of college, and actually I ended up exploring a couple of things. I did an internship in teaching, so I was teaching for quite a while, and it was actually something that I did during my gap year also, because I really enjoyed it. 

Outside of teaching, I did research in public health… and then I also kind of explored doing statistics and data analytics. 

But ultimately, similar to Sam, working in a very clinic/volunteering environment, and working with these patients, listening to their stories, and really connecting with the patients on a deeper level… it made me realize that, oh, you know, there are so many different things that I could do, but this is something that I felt I really enjoyed doing, and wouldn’t mind doing for the rest of my life.

It was something that I felt like, you know, you were contributing very directly to the well-being of a community, to the well-being of the patients that you see, which—of course, you know, there are a lot of different careers [in which] you can provide service… but this is something, especially if you’re interested in the science, if you’re interested in medicine as an idea and connecting that with the very human experience of treating patients: I think it’s a really great career to explore.

So yeah, that’s kind of how it came together. It’s a lot of… jumbled ideas, kind of hopping along different paths, but then, ultimately, coming to an idea that, oh, you know, I really wouldn’t regret doing this in the future.

Elton Lin: Awesome! Awesome. Thanks, Ivan.

And I just want to make a quick observation before I give it to William but an observation of: you actually took time to explore other disciplines, other career fields potentially, and other things that you might be good at, and there was sort of a sense of exploration built into your process, and it wasn’t just [that] you decided one direction and you went for it. So that’s interesting.

Yeah, William!

William Kerr: So I think, more similar to Sam, I kind of was the—not maybe, more, you can call it the die-hard premed, kind of knowing that I was exposed to it probably in high school. My dad works in biotech and he always wanted to go to medical school, but he didn’t have the grades, and by the time he was thinking about a post-bacc, which is what most non-traditional students do, he had me, and so he wanted to be financially stable.

So I feel like medicine has kind of been around… you know, I was kind of spoonfed it, and I realized in college as I started volunteering, and even in high school actually, is where it started—through Elton’s recommendation, I did a program at USC—and as a high school student, there’s not as much you can really do, it’s more of observation and getting exposure, and so seeing how doctors interacted, I realized that it really was like, you know, science, and what Ivan said too, there’s this humanistic component… 

And I work with—Ivan, Sam, and I, we see doctors all the time, and there’s just a lot more responsibility, and that was something that I really saw, like, I don’t want to just be a technician; I also want to be able to help them with other issues that are related to their health, but may not be exactly seen in a lab test.

So that’s kind of what made me fascinated with medicine, and being in San Diego, I was fortunate to have a lot of opportunities working close to the border, you know, we’re only 30 minutes away, and so I got to work in Tijuana as a volunteer coordinator, and work with refugees from all over the world, from recently Ukraine to South America to Haiti, and so being someone that’s just fascinated and addicted to Google Maps, and learning about people, I think medicine is—you learn about people.

It’s a very generic phrase, “oh, you love people,” but it’s really the heart of this field, and it’s driven me to continue this path, and work through pretty much all the barriers that exist in becoming a doctor. But I think that people that prevail through are ones that end up loving the field and embracing those responsibilities.

Elton Lin: Awesome, thank you, William. Appreciate that.

Let’s get right into some questions as it relates to the high school journey. This is where—there’s already a host of questions coming in, and then there’s some questions that we’ve already planned, which is great, but: what advice do you have for high school students selecting undergraduate programs and majors?

And this is where you can certainly think about your own journey, right, and you can certainly think, “if I had to do it over again, what would I do?” And so—especially thinking through application process, your own experience: what should high school students be thinking about as it relates to where they go to school, what they should study? What are your thoughts?

Samantha Castro-Rico: I can start. I majored in political science when I was in college, which had nothing to do with medicine. A lot of friends that I knew did bio or chem, which is a great major to have. I think, for me, I really loved the political science-based classes that I took in high school, and I thought they would be interesting, and looking back over this long application process, I’m really glad that I went to a school that was a liberal arts institution, where i was exposed to a really big array of the social sciences.

I’m going to pursue a career in medicine, and so all of these things centered on bio and chem, like physiology—I will learn those anyway, and so to me, my rationale for majoring in political science is: this is really the only opportunity that I’ll have to invest in another kind of passion area for me.

And I think it made me a much better writer, it made me a much better critical thinker, which has fed into all areas of my path afterwards. When I was applying to medical school, when I was studying for the MCAT, all of these things contributed, and I’m really grateful that I had the affirmation from mentors that it was okay to major in non-stem, in a field, because there was a lot of pressure to be bio or chem or physics, and I didn’t think that I would necessarily be as invested in those things at that point in my academic journey. I wanted to take classes on the politics of literally anything, and race, and thinking about ethnicity studies: all these things that contribute to medicine, but are maybe not as directly connected within, like, a physiology class that you’re going to take.

And so I would strongly be biased for that, and having that opportunity to go to an institution that offers those classes.

Elton Lin: I want to give William an opportunity to respond, but just to follow up, Sam, with what you—I think you already just probably broke a misnomer about what is needed in undergrad.

I just had a conversation with a family who said, who—the assumption is that you need to study biology or some type of life science in undergrad in order to be best prepared for being an applicant in med school, and you kind of obviously, I think, just broke…

Number one: you already made some comments about the benefit of actually studying the humanities in preparation for med school. Do you have a sense of whether… generally speaking, does studying a major that’s outside of STEM either help or hurt in the admission process?

Samantha Castro-Rico: I think it helps. At least, for me it did.

It gave me a lot of different things to talk about during my interviews. When I was writing secondaries—I think if I had been more accustomed to scientific writing, for example, things that you would learn if you’re doing a lot of research and focusing on that area, I don’t think I would have been able to speak more like in a narrative way, and have a type of writing that was interesting for people that are reading about your own life story. I think sometimes, it’s hard to translate those skills over and to learn them immediately when you’re doing it only every once in a while rather than within every class that you’re taking, when you’re practicing constantly.

I think, when I was doing interviews, it was always a question that I was asked… “you didn’t major in biology; what was your favorite class then, why was this helpful to you?” And I had so many things to say, whereas—I don’t know if I would have felt as passionate about talking about my introductory chemistry class, right? 

But: just so many different things and so many different interests that I pursued my thesis—like, all of these questions that I received, I had a passion for answering them, and I think I had more to say because they felt more applicable than something that was like molecular, you know, that’s more abstract, maybe related to medicine, but not so clearly.

I think in terms of hurting me, the only thing I would say is potentially studying for the MCAT, having something like the chem or physics sections… maybe someone that had spent more time in those areas and had gone into upper-level courses would have felt more comfortable with studying, but I think it ultimately ended up being okay. And I felt like I was more prepared for the CARS [Critical Analysis and Reasoning Skills] section, which is something that I think a lot of people often struggle with. But that reading and those skills were very easily transferable into that exam.

Elton Lin: And just to maybe isolate two things that I heard you say, maybe: number one is that … staying in the humanities has helped you really, perhaps, tell your story better, and really learn what it means to think outside a more STEM, analytical-focused type way of thinking. And also, it allows you to sort of connect the dots on the issues that are happening around health, and in so doing, really communicate effectively about not just what is happening in medical science, but the ramifications that medical science is having in the world.

Fantastic! And sounds like it helped more than hurt… sounds like you did great.

Ivan and William, anything else to add with regards to college majors and/or undergraduate programs?

Ivan Chan: Yeah, I will say that I think, you know, going back to… the common misunderstanding of, of you, have to major in bio, major in chem, or something in life science… ultimately, everybody who is applying to medical school will have to take the same prerequisite classes. And so ultimately, no matter what you major in… I mean, Sam majored in political science, but she took all of the biology classes, chemistry classes, physics classes that were required to apply to medical school.

And so… to be honest, I think these classes already prepare you enough to take the MCAT. You don’t need higher levels of knowledge in order to excel at this exam.

So I think, with that in mind, it gives—for me, at least, it gave me a little bit less pressure to worry about taking, like, advanced biology or advanced chemistry, physics classes.

For me, I did have a very strong interest in the life sciences. I didn’t major in biology, but I majored in neuroscience! But my focus was very outside—it wasn’t very, like, biological neuroscience. What I did was more computational and social neuroscience. It was really interesting. It wasn’t necessarily specifically tied to learning about biological systems, but I felt like it was…

I think, honestly, as long as you find something that you’re really interested in—and it doesn’t matter what it is—if you just do the major, and as long as you do the prerequisites, you’re going to be fine.

William Kerr: Yeah, and then just to add on real quick: I think, for me, if—you asked if we had any regrets. I probably would have studied history instead of microbiology because, like Ivan said, you take a lot of these very specific—like microbial genetics, right, and if you have a passion for that, great! But for me, I realized that I wanted to just take these prerequisites and really explore. 

One of my favorite classes at UCSD was like, Imperialism in the Pacific, and so [taking] these sorts of classes, I was like: wow, I should have done history. My best friend’s dad, who’s a physician, studied history in college.

So I think that you should study—it shouldn’t be like, what are the advantages, what are the disadvantages? It should really just—you should study what you’re passionate about. If you love data science, I’m sure you can find ways to connect data science into medicine and, you know, create your own programs to help low-income clinics improve their medical system, patient information system.

So I think that there’s a lot to choose from, but: I would have done history, and I’m really jealous that Sam did political science, because it seemed like she had a great time. And Ivan loved neuroscience! So I think you just have to pick what you’re passionate about.

Ivan Chan: I just wanted to say: there’s also a very big difference that I didn’t realize until I was actually in college, in terms of the different types of colleges and universities that you can attend. 

The University of California system is a fantastic school system, but I think one of the things that you can consider when you’re applying to colleges—because I think that’s the closer step, right, for a bunch of our audience—is thinking about the difference that Sam mentioned about liberal arts schools versus non-liberal arts schools.

Because for me, I felt like I—so just to give an idea of the number of classes that we have to take for our majors, I think it’s somewhere between 12 and 14 classes. So that’s 12 and 14 out of 36 to graduate. And so, outside of the neuroscience classes that I’ve taken, I was also able to take some really, really interesting classes on political science and history—all these social studies courses that I felt were really—that really helped me broaden my perspective.

But on the other hand, for example, somebody who goes to a state school, like Will at UCSD, you are a lot more limited in the classes that you can take, because you have so many more classes that are required to complete the major. I’m sure you could talk a little bit more about your experience, Will, but from what I understand, you only have like, maybe three or four classes that you can take outside of your major, right?

William Kerr: Yeah, that’s true. That’s a good point to mention.

So liberal arts: you have more flexibility, so I think with the UCs then, it matters even more what you study, because you are limited. Besides your general education classes, it’s all upper division premed—I mean, genetics, whatever biology classes you have, right.

Elton Lin: And I think maybe two things to pull out from what you all shared here is that I think—maybe Ivan and Sam—I think you’re sort of valuing the liberal arts approach to education, which is creating space for you to really explore, and there’s a little bit where I sense that you’re putting a premium, and perhaps a justifiable premium, on… really enjoying your undergraduate experience and having space to explore your curiosities and to really veer outside of biology.

And the assumption here is that that’s not—that’s not a net negative to your journey towards med school, towards being a doctor. And that invariably, I think—there may be some assumptions or misconceptions that, really, the best place to prepare for med school are schools like a UC San Diego or UCLA—which do, from the numbers, generate a ton of med school students. There are a ton of students from both schools that go to med school every single year, and there is a… university hospital that, perhaps, undergraduates have access to, and that seems like a very logical and mindful way to prepare.

But you’re saying—which I would agree [with]—that the liberal arts college experience is also a very viable and worthwhile path… is that correct?

Ivan Chan: Yeah, yeah, that’s absolutely correct. And, I mean, you know, you talk about numbers, but these schools also have plenty of students, you know, you have 30,000 students at some of these state schools… at a liberal arts school, generally, you might have, I don’t know, 10,000 students—a third or maybe even less, right?

And, I don’t know, I feel like you are just a more well-rounded applicant. And in terms of experiences, I feel like Sam said… you could talk a little bit more during your interviews. And also, with the liberal arts experience, I felt like—for me, at least… I didn’t feel like I was limited in my path, in terms of: for example, if I went to a state school like UC San Diego, and I decided to do the premed track, it would be really hard for me to switch career paths. Let’s say I was two years in and decided, oh, you know, this isn’t really something that I… I feel like maybe there’s something else that I would enjoy more. It would be really hard for me to make that change. 

But with the education that I had, I felt like there were a lot of avenues that I could take, and like I mentioned, I did explore these other career paths that I really wanted to explore, but ultimately came back to medicine. But I had that space to do that, which… you know, you’re only going to do college once, right? So this is something that is important to keep in mind.

But at the same time… something else important to keep in mind is the finances aspect. Because for a lot of people, you know, attending a public university is less expensive, just financially compared to attending a liberal arts private university. And with this… it’s important to keep that in mind, especially if you’re going down this path, because the majority of students in medical school take out loans to pay for medical school. So to reduce that loan debt, it might be a smart financial decision to attend a public university. 

So there’s pros and cons, and I think it’s really important to weigh both and consider what you feel like would be the more fulfilling, more intelligent decision to make for yourself when you get to that point.

Elton Lin: I appreciate the pros and cons for both, and I think… perhaps the tenor really is that it’s absolutely not a liability to go to a liberal arts college.

Maybe just a follow-up question: do you think there are some measurable benefits to going to a liberal arts college, maybe as it relates to letters of recommendation for med school, or the accessibility to internships, perhaps research internships as well? Are there some benefits to going to, say, a smaller private school or a small liberal arts college in general, that may be more beneficial to the med school applicant process.

Ivan Chan: Yeah, that’s actually a really wonderful question.

I feel like, in general, the student-to-professor ratio is a pretty important thing that people don’t consider enough, because i felt like, throughout my liberal arts college experience, I had numerous opportunities to really get to know certain professors, because the class sizes were so small. We had mostly seminar-style classes, so you’d have maybe five to ten students in each class, and so you really get to build that sort of connection with a professor that you might not have as many opportunities to do in a state school or in a public school.

And outside of that, I feel like research is… that’s also an important thing. I think, generally, with more students, things get a little bit more competitive in terms of how many open positions there are, how many… like, whether you’re able to pursue things. I felt like I was able to have a pretty large role in exploring when I was doing research… I had a very one-on-one mentorship within my lab, and I was able to play a really large role in terms of the projects that I was a part of—which might not necessarily be the case, depending on where you go and depending on what positions are available to you at a state school.

But that was a really great question. I think it’s something else to keep in mind also.

Elton Lin: And maybe for William, on the public school side, certainly this is not a “poo-poo on the large public school”...

[Everyone laughs.]

Elton Lin: [as a fake accusation] “Why are you at UC San Diego??”

William Kerr: Yeah, yeah, I agree!

And the letters of rec—these are the things that, you know, as high school—in high school, I don’t think Sam, Ivan, and I were thinking about how the school we picked would affect letters of rec, because this is something that you do during the application process.

And at UCSD, I was able to get good letters of rec, but the professors—I had to really reach out, I had to find them. There’s a lot more—you’re competing, [your] classmates trying to also speak to them, and so I got letters of rec from professors that I took multiple classes with, or I had a very small seminar session, I really got to build a relationship with them through office hours. So it is possible, but with a larger class size, it’s inevitable that you’re going to be in line with other premed students trying to talk to professors. 

So that’s something to keep track of, pros and cons.

The good thing about UCSD is [it has] a big campus, there are a lot of research opportunities, there are also a lot of students. So there are definitely trade-offs there.

Elton Lin: So what you’re saying, Will, is that… I mean, more students, but also generally speaking, a lot of opportunities. There’s a lot of things there…

William Kerr: There are a lot of opportunities. And also, you know, liberal arts schools—maybe not Yale, where it’s located in New Haven, but maybe that’s something more remote, I think that it may be harder to work with diverse populations, and being in San Diego really shaped my personal statement, my journey into medicine, and so location is key, because those opportunities are really going to impact your application more so than the grades.

Elton Lin: And maybe just to finish up this question about undergrad, or maybe choosing undergrad: certainly both—all of you are going to very selective universities, or went to selective universities, but… selectivity is a part of it, but if there was… what elements in an undergrad should a high school student be looking for? Because I think this is where—I think you’re saying that liberal arts colleges—fantastic, good opportunities… large public schools, there are certainly plenty of opportunities… but if I’m trying to maybe reduce my school list down from a million colleges to less than that, what are really the key things I should be looking for in an undergraduate program that would make it a good fit for a premed-aiming student?

Samantha Castro-Rico: I think for me, one of the big things was recognizing that college was going to be hard, and that I would probably struggle through many parts of it—and so I wanted to make sure that I had a really strong community while at the school.

And so for me, as a Mexican-American, I really looked at location: like, if I go to a grocery store near my school, will I find food that I will want to eat? I think it's a small thing, but having communities where you feel integrated and accepted is a really important part of building a support system wherever you go, both for college and for medical school.

So thinking about location was really important to me, and I think that sense of community—or looking for that sense of community—spread to other aspects of a university: like, are there clubs that I see myself joining? When I look at—let's say, like a page for student affairs, does the class look like me? Could I see myself in these spaces, and see myself succeeding in these spaces? I think I was very intentional about asking myself that question, and if the answer was no, I didn't apply, because I didn't think that I would be successful there. And I think it has led me to be in spaces where I do feel supported, and has made the really low parts of college—which will come at any point—be a little bit more bearable. And so that would be a big thing.

Also financial aid… which schools are able to offer more support, whether that's need-based or merit-based, to make sure that the burden of a college education—when I'm thinking about medical school, which is going to be another big four-year expense—is not as expansive. I think sometimes with private institutions, like if you are an out-of-state resident, it might be—they might have more of an endowment where they can give need-based aid or merit-based aid, whereas similarly, if you are going to an in-state public institution, you will also have a diminished tuition. And so keeping those things in mind and balancing those priorities.

Ivan Chan: Yeah! Yeah.

But ultimately, in terms of applying to medical school, outside of considering—I think, you know, all the things that we've already talked about are really valid things to consider in terms of opportunities, in terms of support—but outside of this… if you had two applicants with the exact same you know resumés… and one who went to a really selective college, and one who went to a much less selective—perhaps like a public university: it doesn’t really matter to the medical school admissions.

I have a lot of—we both attend pretty selective medical schools, and in my class at Perelman, we have a lot of students who went to really, really tiny public state schools in the middle of nowhere—Mississippi, Michigan—and they’re still my classmates, you know? These are students who… there’s no limits on… the selectivity of the college that you go to doesn’t really matter as much as you might expect it to. Rather, it’s this idea of whether or not you’re able to really take advantage of the opportunities that you were given, or the opportunities that are available to you within the space that you do eventually go to.

Elton Lin: I think you’ve also pointed out a big misconception, probably, from the audience too, is that they’re probably thinking: hey, you both went to Yale, and invariably, you're going to get admitted to whatever med school you’re going to apply to—which, I think you would both agree, that's far from the truth, right?

But certainly, what I hear you saying is that where you went to undergrad does not factor nearly quite as much as everybody thinks in the review process—as we all think. And so whether—and what I heard you saying is that there's certainly some students from top schools, but there are other students from small, perhaps small public schools, in more rural, in different parts of the United States—all ranges of selectivity, some not selective and some very selective.

And it does hearken back to me where… I remember reading a Stanford med school promo that was also very proud of students coming from all types of universities, including small public schools from the South, from the North, including Ivy Leagues as well. So what I hear you saying is that the selectivity of the school—because I know there’s going to be a lot of parents who are thinking: hey, if my kid just gets into UC Berkeley, they are absolutely—they’re going to have a better chance… and you’re saying that that’s not really quite the case.

And what I hear you both highlighting is that it’s really the learning experience, finding the right community… you did mention that it was helpful to have smaller classes, to have better relationships with professors (to perhaps provide better letters of recommendation, access to research, et cetera)—so all those things mattered, but had less to do with just trying to get into the highest-ranked thing, as you can imagine.

Ivan Chan: That was a great way to phrase it, yeah.

Elton Lin: William, anything else you want to add? Perhaps this is your pitch for large public schools!

William Kerr: No, I mean: I remember when I was debating between a smaller private school with some scholarship in Florida and UCSD, and I ultimately picked UCSD because I thought—you know, I was looking at it—it was a numbers game for me, and also being in San Diego… I really like the location.

I think there's so many things you have to factor in, but I think, to just get rid of that myth: prestige really matters less—unless you're applying to Goldman Sachs or investment banking—but in the field of medicine, they care a lot more about your experiences, and what opportunities you've taken.

So I think at UCSD, the biggest—if I were to sell UCSD as a premed institution, I would say that the geographical location gives you immense opportunity with the biotech up north, down south you can really get involved in street clinic… the location is perfect for medicine. Being at the confluence of the U.S. and Mexican border, there's a lot going on, and so I would say: for me, location probably was the biggest factor in making UCSD an attractive option… I realize that now. And initially, it was more just: it's a big public school that pumps out a lot of medical students. So I think UCSD is great for its location.

There are trade-offs, [but] ... I wouldn't trade—I would still love—if I were to go back, I would still do UCSD again. It's really what you make of the experiences. We've all had really good experiences at different universities. 

Elton Lin: Awesome! Awesome, thank you, William. That’s a good pitch for UC San Diego.

I want to actually make sure that we have enough time for questions—and there’s a couple questions that… I’ll save those for the Q&A… 

Maybe one or one-and-a-half last questions left: … [all of you are] either in [med school] or you’re in the last stage… but what do you think were the most commonly misunderstood aspects of applying to med school? You kind of had an idea, back when you were in high school—maybe you had an idea of what it would be like somewhere along in undergrad—but now that you’re in, or now that you’re applying, what were some of the most commonly misunderstood aspects?

Samantha Castro-Rico: I can start! I think, when I started college and kind of cemented my understanding of what I needed to do in order to get into medical school—and actually even through some of the end of my high school—I received a lot of messaging about like, “you need to do this, this, this, ABCD”, constant berating of, “you have to have this many hours and this many extracurriculars, you need to be involved in A thing and B thing, and you need to publish like ten papers,” and it was really overwhelming.

Elton Lin: Ten papers! Yikes!

Samantha Castro-Rico: It was a ridiculous amount! And I think a lot of the rhetoric that I was exposed to—it made medicine feel very inaccessible.

One thing that has been really helpful for me in recognizing—and it took me a few years in college to get to that point—was that if I invested more time into fewer things that I really cared about, I would have a much more meaningful experience, I would grow so much more as an individual, and although maybe I couldn't fill out the fifteen activities that they ask of you in medical school application, I had really amazing experiences to fill in ten. And those ten were sufficient.

So I think quality over quantity every single time… I think, if I had received that messaging, I would have, you know, had another year of investing in something that I was really passionate about, and I would have grown even more than what I could have done in the two years where I kind of internalized that message and tried to act on it.

So maybe keeping those things in mind… it’s overwhelming to receive that, but important to ground yourself in what is actually important to you, and what you are actually doing in order to fit a mold. I think the mold is nonexistent. Just trying to feed into your passions is more important.

Elton Lin: More time, fewer things. No need for ten published papers. Okay.

[Everyone laughs.]

Samantha Castro-Rico: Exactly! I didn’t have a single one!

Elton Lin: Zero!

Ivan Chan: I mean, certainly there are going to be some students who, you know, are really into that research aspect, right? And that could be one of those things that they feel like: okay, you know, this is something that I really want to commit to. But ultimately, I feel like for medical school—and I think in general, college too—just really focusing on certain things that you are really interested in and really developing a deeper understanding for that passion, rather than spreading yourself out really thin, trying to do everything… like, everything everywhere all at once, right?

That's really the opposite of what you should be trying to do, because it's always so much more interesting to talk to a person who has this really specific niche that they’ve been spending a lot of time in, something that they’re really passionate about, rather than… talk to somebody who has a surface-level involvement in a bunch of different things, but can't really talk specifically about something that they really committed a lot of their time to.

I think it’s just something that you’ll… a life lesson really, in general, but it’s really helpful when you get to that stage of the interviews… people are going to ask you: what do you like to do? What are you passionate about? And if you can't answer that question, then maybe that's something that you need to reconsider.

Elton Lin: And you shouldn't talk about chemistry in that, right? “I really enjoy chemistry. Specifically intro chemistry.”

[Everyone laughs.]

Elton Lin: William, anything you want to add here?

William Kerr: Yeah, no, just reiterating a longitudinal commitment—that’s something, you know, as I’m sending off these essays—it really helps complete your story. And the top med school admissions officers always mention, like: “[is what you’re] saying, is it backed up by what you did?” Because it’s very easy to write something that sounds really nice and answers the prompt of what these med schools are asking for, but I notice myself—that when I’m able to answer a prompt, I’m able to reference back to something that I did.

So as high school students: just think about what you're really passionate about. If you like learning languages, and you already, for example, like Sam, spoke Spanish—you could do medical interpreting, you could get certified, so you're not just assisting in the clinic randomly, you're actually in the visits. Or if you're interested in—you love visiting your grandparents in the nursing home, and geriatrics is really something you're passionate about, you can get into hospice care and research.

Those are things that you can think about, because medicine isn't generic. There's so many different paths you can pick from. For me, I was really interested in global health and working with refugees, and in San Diego, I had those opportunities. So I learned Spanish here in San Diego, and that was some passion that I developed.

So think about, really—I think, for these students, and all these parents that are trying to support their [kids]... just really ask them, “what part of medicine are you interested in?” I know it's a very young age to be thinking about that, but I think giving that thought process will shape the organizations you pick in college, and all of that.

Elton Lin: Awesome, awesome!

I feel like we could talk for another hour, but I want to open up for some questions! I want to bring in Anthony. So Anthony, if you can jump in with us, and… what do we got? What do we got on deck?

Anthony Su: Yeah, I’ll come back!

I had a question here around how athletes prepared during medical school… but in general, I think it’s mostly talking about your ability to balance your time commitments, and things like that. Could you guys speak on how that worked out for you?

Ivan Chan: Well, neither of us [gestures between him and Samantha] are student athletes, but we’ve had friends who were, and… generally, it's a pretty favorable thing when you're applying to a medical school, because these med school committees understand that it's a very strict time commitment, and that's something that you are really spending a lot of time in. Same with, you know, if you’re working a work study job, where you’re spending ten, maybe twenty hours a week dedicating your time to a specific activity.

But generally, I think one of the best ways that you can really try to manage this is setting—having a very regular schedule, having routines, making sure that outside of the time you have blocked for athletics or blocked for your work, you are using that time productively. I think, ultimately, with admissions, athletes are generally… how do I explain this… 

Admissions officers, they kind of understand that you’re spending ten, maybe twenty hours preparing for, like, a competition, so it makes sense that you have a few less hours in research, or a few less hours doing service, because you have different commitments than other people, generally. So you do get a little bit of leeway there. But it doesn’t mean that you can just not do any of these other things also. It’s a lot about making sure that you have that schedule so that you could fulfill those responsibilities; it’s about being organized and learning how to manage time effectively.

Samantha Castro-Rico: Yeah, I also was not—like Ivan said, I was not a student athlete, but I have a lot of classmates now that were. There’s actually a really cool organization that they formed called Sneakers To Scrubs, which is—there are a lot of students in my class year that were either professional basketball players or they played with—

Ivan Chan: In the NBA!

Samantha Castro-Rico: Yeah, in the NBA, and so—

Elton Lin: Who?! Perhaps that’s another podcast.

Samantha Castro-Rico: Yeah! It’s very random, and they’re very successful, and they’re much older than most of us, but I think they’ve always integrated medicine within the sport that they were in—so in this case, they were all basketball players, so they've made sure that they work within communities and with kids that played basketball, and introducing them to medicine, and that being kind of a pathway to a career in medicine that maybe wasn’t available to them.

So I think, keeping that in mind, all of the things that Ivan said about managing time and keeping track of all of those responsibilities, but also recognizing that sports and these other extracurriculars are not exclusive, right? They go in tandem with medicine, they go in tandem with everything. And so: keeping that in mind.

Elton Lin: I want you to send us a picture of Michael Jordan in the lab.

[Everyone laughs.]

Samantha Castro-Rico: I wish I had that, but no.

Elton Lin: Anthony, why don’t we do the extracurricular activities? I think that’s a…

Anthony Su: Sure. Yeah. There’s a question around the extracurriculars for high school students, if they’re kind of interested or wanting to go towards this premed track… but just thinking about what you would recommend students work on at this point.

William Kerr: I guess I can start, because I did a few medically-related—like I said, in high school, I was kind of already thinking about it.

I did a program at USC that I really enjoyed: it was basically a two-month seminar-based course, you get paired with a professor… and it was at USC, University of Southern California, so we got to explore the Children’s Hospital Los Angeles, and we got to see the—it was called Future Physicians.

So again, like I said, in high school, there’s not a lot you can do: it’s more exposure and seeing what you like. Some high school students start with research. I know in my lab at UCSD, there were some kids from the local high school starting research, which is very—that’s great! I mean, if you want to start research, then it’s a good opportunity, and honestly you forge a lot of connections with professors, and it could be something you’re passionate about.

…or hospital volunteering, you know? At our hospital, they were very selective, but did take high school—if you were in your senior year of high school, they took that. So I think those are some early things you can get started with.

Elton Lin: Maybe real quick as a follow-up: are any high school activities, perhaps—I mean, by the time you’re applying to med school, I mean, none of those things are essentially included on your resume. So I think perhaps the activities are… perhaps, William, I think, is alluding to: it’s really about exposure, really about seeing if the medical path is a good path for you. So whether it is hospital volunteering, or hospital exposure, or shadowing, or research…

But yeah, anything else? Any other extracurricular activities you would recommend for high school students? [jokes] Bio Olympiad?

Samantha Castro-Rico: Maybe. Not for me! But shout out to those that would enjoy them.

Two things: I think high school is a time that maybe feels very overwhelming while you’re in it, but really, it’s probably the most free time you’ll ever have as you go through higher levels of education. So I would strongly encourage people to invest in skills. So like, if you speak a language or you’re interested in a language—really engaging with the classes that are offered at your high school, or opportunities to integrate that language into your everyday life, so by the time that you are in college, and you're maybe a little bit more busy, you have a better foundation to improve that language and get to fluency, if that's something that you would want.

I think, both in terms of—I mean, Ivan can talk about a recent Spanish integration trip that he did—but just building those foundations, and preparing yourself for the skills and the type of doctor that you want to be, is really important to do in high school.

I also did a global health program. It was pretty short. I think I wanted to see what global health looked like. I think there’s very different perspectives… to some degree, I feel very thankful that I did it, because I was exposed to medicine where I wouldn’t have been able to closer to home. However, I think I should have been more selective about the program that I was in and the type of work that they were doing, the impact that it has in the community—all of these considerations about the impact of global health and the ethics of global health, that I maybe learned when I was in college, that I wish I would have thought about when I was in high school.

But: really critically engaging with the programs that you want to be a part of, and seeing all these different aspects of medicine, would be my big suggestion.

Ivan Chan: Yeah, I think what Sam mentioned about these—language is lowkey a really important thing that I felt like I didn’t have enough emphasis in when I was in high school, because when I was in—well, college is when you can really first start to get involved doing clinical volunteering activities, and sometimes it can be really helpful to have a fluency in a language that the population that you’re treating really speaks.

For example, Sam was actually a medical interpreter at the free clinic based out of the medical school, and being able to speak Spanish with complete fluency really gave her an edge to do more, to have more responsibilities within the clinic, that other people might not have had.

But yeah, I wish I learned Spanish to a higher degree when I was in high school, or paid more attention, because I started—I realized how important it was when I started medical school, and that was when I started learning Spanish. And this past summer—the past two months, actually, I was in Guatemala, doing an immersion program, immersion medical Spanish program, where I was working in a clinic and also learning Spanish at the same time. But you know, I feel like I would have achieved a greater degree of proficiency if I had started that sooner. 

Also, I feel like—in high school, honestly, like we said—about just focusing on things that you’re really interested in… for me, I spent a lot of time… I really enjoyed doing community service and working with my friends to do that. So we set up a program with the local elementary schools to get students involved with community service, when I was in high school. That was just something that was like a passion project that I really put a lot of my time into, and I didn’t really do anything medical-related. But I thought it really showcased something that I was really interested in, and it definitely helped with the college admissions part. 

But yeah, I think, ultimately, it goes back to that idea of: okay, find something that you’re really into, and then really dive deep into it. It doesn’t have to be medically-related—it can be anything.

Elton Lin: It absolutely sounds like—actually, let me—I think we’re at the top of the hour… 

But I feel like a lot of the tenor of what everybody is saying here is really: you don’t need to live and breathe biology and/or anatomy, and that the value of really exploring in all directions—there’s value to it…

I almost feel like you’re saying that it’s really critical that you—whether it is languages, whether it is the humanities, whether it is history, whatever it might be—to really take the opportunity to really go deeply into those areas that you’re most curious about, and it’s not compromising your journey to med school. In fact, it is an asset; it is an informant of your journey to med school.

I’m trying to think… Anthony, do we have time?

Do you guys have one line about BS/MD? [Everyone laughs.] That’s a loaded question—

Anthony Su: [laughs] One line, yeah.

Elton Lin: I don’t even want to—there’s no question. This is BS/MD: one response, one-line response.

Samantha Castro-Rico: I think: shout out to those that do it. I think it’s all very restrictive, and so I wouldn’t have done it.

Ivan Chan: Yeah! I know people who have gotten accepted into it, and these BS/MD programs—they’re like—what you have to understand is: it’s a lot of work. And generally with medical school, with the process… where you go, traditionally, just through college and then to medical school, you have those courses a little bit more spaced out.

With a BS/MD program, it’s very intense all the way through, and—you know, if that’s something that you want to do, you will save a lot of money and save a lot of time. That is a fact. But you have to be absolutely certain. And I feel like, when you’re eighteen, it’s hard to be absolutely certain. For the majority of people! But if you are that type of person, then I think it’s a good track to pursue.

Elton Lin: All right! William, I’ll give you [the] last word.

William Kerr: I have friends, too, that—I know a friend that did it. I wouldn’t do it, because it’s just too condensed, doesn’t give you—and most of my friends changed, are not premed [anymore]. So just my two cents there. 

But for the few that are 110% medicine, then do it—do it, to be honest.

Elton Lin: One hundred and ten percent, when you’re seventeen or eighteen. You’ve got to be 110%.

Ivan Chan: Exactly.

Elton Lin: It’s true, it’s true. That is what I also tell students and families as well. And your profile needs to match that! That’s kind of the challenge in high school, that you’ve got to be there, your profile needs to be there as well, and it's difficult, right? And the dropout rate is fairly high for BS/MD programs. 

Another webinar, podcast for another day, but! Ivan, Sam, William: thank you guys so much, really appreciate all the valuable input. I think we learned a lot today and, I think, corrected a lot of misnomers, misconceptions, about the med school path. 

And I just feel like perhaps the point that we should all take away is that there’s room to explore, and it’s not so restrictive, and it’s not—there are ways to get to where you need to go, and sometimes it seems overwhelming, but there’s room to… certainly you need good grades, good test scores, you do need a resume… but there’s room to really be who you are, and to really enjoy your undergraduate experience, really explore your intellectual curiosities.

So: appreciate all three of you, and thank you for all the attendees! We likely will post this video sometime soon. Next week is coming—I think Ivan, Sam, and William will care less—but we’re doing a digital SAT webinar, and maybe Ivan and Sam will sign up quickly and want to learn about it, but—

[Everyone laughs.]

Elton Lin: Digital SAT, with our friends at Ivy Method Tutoring, and we’re going to dig into the differences between the digital SAT, the old SAT, advantages, disadvantages, and also the ACT as well. So join us next week. 

Thanks everybody, so much, and look forward to seeing you on the next webinar! Thanks, everybody!

Ivan Chan: Thank you guys! It was a pleasure.

Anthony Su: Have a good one!

Elton Lin: Thanks, all.

Anthony Su: Bye.