Webinar Transcript: How Can 9th and 10th Graders Prepare for Admissions?

Anthony Su: Welcome back to our webinar series. It's been a little bit, but I'm glad that we're able to chat again – and hear from all of the folks at home – to give you some thoughts about what's coming up for our younger students: freshmen and sophomores… and a little bit of what's on our minds in regards to how we support younger students. And, hopefully, what should be on students’ and parents’ minds getting ready for this process.

My name is Anthony. I'll be hosting. Today I have Danny with me. Danny, would you like to introduce yourself?

Danny Yoo: Sure. Thanks, Anthony.

My name is Danny Yoo, and I'm an educational consultant with ILUMIN. My background is in entrepreneurship. I used to be a writing coach for college apps and boarding school apps for a little over 10 years.

It's great to have everyone here. Nice to e-meet everyone. And we're excited for a great presentation today.

Anthony Su: Perfect. And, of course, if you are familiar with our webinars you know how it works: we'll have a Q&A section at the end. Feel free to put any of your thoughts in the chat section, or in the Q&A. Just go ahead and put your thoughts there – so we can get an understanding of if there's something we need to clarify later. We'll definitely come back to it! We try to answer pretty much all the questions we can at the end of the webinar.

Okay, we'll get started. Danny will take us down this talk today.

Agenda

Danny Yoo: All righty. Thanks, Anthony.

So our agenda for today. We have a presentation that's geared mainly toward our underclassmen: 9th and 10th graders. We're going to be covering:

• How much do colleges care about the 9th and 10th grade in terms of academics and activities?

• What should 9th and 10th graders focus on when it comes to academics and testing?

• Which activities and involvements (such as volunteering) should I prioritize?

• What is the most valuable way to spend my summers?

• And what should I be doing for college apps in general?

How much do colleges care about what students do in freshman and sophomore year?

These are building-block years!

Danny Yoo: So the burning question: how much do colleges care about what students do in freshman and sophomore years?

As our presentation note says, these are really building-block years – and colleges do understand that. It's very rare for students to know exactly what they want to do in life or career-wise – even major – going into high school.

So freshman and sophomore years they're looking for active engagement in students’ interests.

What should 9th and 10th graders focus on when it comes to academics?

Course selection, rigor, requirements

Danny Yoo: The next burning question that a lot of our families have in mind is, “What should 9th and 10th graders focus on when it comes to academics?

Very important to start off on the right foot! You'll be formulating a four-year plan, looking at course selection for particular interests and potential majors, keeping the rigor up – so taking honors courses, for example, when they're available – and then making sure you're meeting the school requirements, as well as the UC and CSU requirements if you're in California.

[Here’s] just to give you an overview about what the UC A-G requirements are for 9th and 10th grade students (the A-G requirements are the UC's minimum number of classes and credits that students need to fulfill before being eligible to apply to the UC system). We have another slide (in a couple) that shows exactly what the requirements are, but they're in history, English, math, science, foreign language, visual and performing arts (or VPA), and then electives.

Sample 4-year plan: CS major

SUBJECT AREA	9TH GRADE	10TH GRADE	11TH GRADE	12TH GRADE
SUBJECT AREAHISTORY/SOCIAL STUDIES	9TH GRADE-	10TH GRADEWorld History	11TH GRADEAPUSH	12TH GRADEAP US Government /AP microecon
SUBJECT AREAENGLISH	9TH GRADELit/Writ	10TH GRADEWorld Lit/Writ	11TH GRADEAmerican Lit/Writ	12TH GRADEAP Lit
SUBJECT AREAMATH	9TH GRADEAlgebra 2/Trig	10TH GRADEPrecalculus H	11TH GRADEAP Calc BC	12TH GRADEAP Stats
SUBJECT AREASCIENCE	9TH GRADEBiology	10TH GRADEChem H	11TH GRADEAP Physics C	12TH GRADEAP Chem
SUBJECT AREALANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH	9TH GRADESpanish 1	10TH GRADESpanish 2	11TH GRADESpanish 3	12TH GRADESpanish H
SUBJECT AREAVISUAL/PERFORMING ARTS	9TH GRADEArt 1	10TH GRADE-	11TH GRADE-	12TH GRADE-
SUBJECT AREAELECTIVE	9TH GRADEPE	10TH GRADE-	11TH GRADE-	12TH GRADE-
SUBJECT AREAELECTIVE	9TH GRADE-	10TH GRADEProgramming: Java	11TH GRADEAP CS	12TH GRADE-
SUBJECT AREAOTHER (NON-A-G COURSE)	9TH GRADE-	10TH GRADE-	11TH GRADE-	12TH GRADE-

Danny Yoo: We want to share with you a couple of example four-year plans that we help formulate for our students. The first example we have is for a CS major.

This particular student is going for a CS major for college – and if you look at (for example) 11th and 12th grades, these are very telling. The kind of courses that you're taking, such as AP Calculus BC, AP Physics C: very telling as a CS major. And so my question to the audience might be: in 11th grade, which AP do you think is the least important for a CS major?

Anthony Su: Yeah, and I think (going along this train of thought) [for] our job as consultants we're always helping students try to balance their coursework. Of course, AP courses are tough, right? We're helping students get a better understanding of how to stay competitive.

Danny, I also want to toss a thought to you: when you're helping students plan these four-year plans, how flexible is it? How often do you – at the end of 9th grade, working with an incoming 10th grader – have them take a look at and try to adjust this? What are some of the things with which you're working with students here?

Danny Yoo: Right. Being able to adjust and pivot to different course plans is very central to our work. Oftentimes students maybe started out on the life sciences/pre-med track, coming into 9th grade, and then through the middle of the year (after taking a few classes online, joining different clubs…) they realize that they're [leaning] more towards CS, for example. In that case we would – through our discussions, ongoing meetings – sit down with the parents and the students and formulate the four-year plan accordingly.

Anthony Su: Know that a lot of these four-your plans are a little bit more flexible.

Now the question of the audience, if you can put in chat: we're looking at 11th grade here. Given that the student is interested in computer science and they're looking at taking AP Computer Science AP Physics C, AP Calculus B/C (which, actually for a lot of students, is a 12th grade class) AP US History… what do people think at home is the least important of these APs?

It is a tricky question that can be a little bit confusing – because it seems like, “Oh! APs are always important!” Right? You should try to take more! But I want to get some thoughts at home. 

Great – so far everyone's saying AP US History. So you get the idea that we're going with here: this idea of knowing that the student who is going to be a CS major likely needs to prioritize the STEM subjects: physics, calculus, AP Computer Science. AP US History tends to be the one that we would probably recommend. Going to regular US history is not going to be a major change, in comparison to (for example) not taking AP Computer Science.

Sample 4-year plan: bio major

Danny Yoo: The next profile is the bio major: another one of our popular majors with many of our students.

SUBJECT AREA	9TH GRADE	10TH GRADE	11TH GRADE	12TH GRADE
SUBJECT AREAHISTORY/SOCIAL STUDIES	9TH GRADECivics	10TH GRADEWorld History	11TH GRADEAPUSH	12TH GRADEAP US Government /AP microecon
SUBJECT AREAENGLISH	9TH GRADEEnglish 9H	10TH GRADEEnglish 10	11TH GRADEEnglish 11H	12TH GRADEAP Lit
SUBJECT AREAMATH	9TH GRADEGeo/Alg. 2/Trig acc.	10TH GRADEAlg. 2/Precalc Acc	11TH GRADEAP Calc BC	12TH GRADEAP Stats
SUBJECT AREASCIENCE	9TH GRADELiving Earth	10TH GRADEChem H	11TH GRADEAP Bio	12TH GRADEAP Chem
SUBJECT AREALANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH	9TH GRADESpanish 3	10TH GRADESpanish 4	11TH GRADE-	12TH GRADE-
SUBJECT AREAVISUAL/PERFORMING ARTS	9TH GRADE-	10TH GRADE-	11TH GRADE-	12TH GRADEIntro to design
SUBJECT AREAELECTIVE	9TH GRADEPE 9	10TH GRADEPE 10	11TH GRADEAnatomy and Physiology	12TH GRADEPrinciples of Biomedical Science/Human Body Systems
SUBJECT AREAELECTIVE	9TH GRADEHealth	10TH GRADE-	11TH GRADEAP Psychology	12TH GRADE-
SUBJECT AREAOTHER (NON-A-G COURSE)	9TH GRADE-	10TH GRADE-	11TH GRADE-	12TH GRADE-

Danny Yoo: As you look at the 11th and 12th grade course load, you might notice “Anatomy and Physiology” and AP Psych – instead of the AP CS for the CS major.

Another important thing to note is that the kind of courses that schools offer are very different depending on the school. If you are in a school that does not offer anatomy and physiology, that's okay. It's okay to drop that one – and find an elective that's related to your interests.

Anthony Su: We'll try to also give some thoughts as well, continuing to think about how critical 11th grade is. 9th and 10th grade, of course, are important years as well – but there's a lot of flexibility moving into and thinking about the specific major and students.

UC and Cal state A-G requirements

Just to give you an overview of the exact requirements of the UC and CSU A-G requirements, from history all the way down to the electives – the required years number of years, and then you have the recommended number of years:

Letter Code	Subject	Required	Recommended
Letter CodeA	SubjectHistory	Required2 years	Recommended2 years
Letter CodeB	SubjectEnglish	Required4 years	Recommended4 years
Letter CodeC	SubjectMathematics	Required3 years	Recommended4 years
Letter CodeD	SubjectLaboratory science	Required2 years	Recommended3 years
Letter CodeE	SubjectForeign language	Required2 years	Recommended3 years
Letter CodeF	SubjectVisual and performing arts	Required1 year	Recommended1 year
Letter CodeG	SubjectCollege prep electives	Required1 year	Recommended1 year

So thinking back to our CS/engineering student, you of course are going to want to meet the recommended years of math and science, for example. And if you're a humanities student (history or English, any kind of social studies major) it's a good idea to meet the recommended foreign language requirement as well.

Anthony Su: Right. And I think that foreign language one is also one that's very contentious or confusing. If you go to the UC’s website that talks about the A-G requirements, the recommended quote unquote “three years” is something that a lot of students are confused with. For example, if I test into something like AP French, does that only count as one year, or does that count as four – since it would be the fourth in terms of consecutive classes of French 1, 2, 3, AP?

For the UCs, they treat AP French as four years. Whereas there are some other schools – most notably, Heather on our team let us know that a school like Boston University – will only treat that as one year. So this is something that's also important to know school by school. Although we use the A-G requirements as a standard for a lot of schools, each school will have its small things like that.

And there's a question here about what is a “college prep elective”? Danny, can you elaborate on what it means for one year of “college prep”?

Danny Yoo: Sure. The easy way to think about it is [as] a course that can be categorized in any of the other A-F categories here. After you have fulfilled the two years of history, for example, down the line (if you take further [history] courses) they can go toward your “college prep elective” one-year requirement.

Anthony Su: One way to think about this: if you take an elective business class, usually it would fit in this category. So it’s an area to say, “Any other kind of items here?”

I'll go through one more question, and we'll save the rest for Q&A at the end. “[For] history only two years are required, but the vast majority of students would do all four years. What would you recommend for students to take fewer classes to have that additional elective? What would you recommend for students planning their courses there?”

Danny Yoo: I think it really depends on the major that the students are going for. Maybe [for a] mechanical engineering major it would be if you can take “principles of engineering” honors, for example – or any kind of engineering elective after meeting the two-year history requirement. You could make a case that that elective engineering major-related elective might be more important.

Usually we do like to recommend exceeding the two years of history requirements: maybe three years of social studies and history, and then going for the engineering elective in that case.

[Site preview: University of California A-G Course List (ucop.edu)]

Danny Yoo: And this is a really good resource for it that's open to everyone. At the high school articulation site, you can actually search your high school – and it'll show all the course offerings at your high school, divided by category from A-G requirements: history, English, math… all the way down to the electives. So you can see which courses that your high school offers will apply to which requirements.

Stay on track!

Major/Interest	Take before graduation	Prep in 9th/10th
Major/InterestBio/Pre-med	Take before graduationAP bio, AP chem, bio pathways	Prep in 9th/10thBio H, chem H
Major/InterestBusiness	Take before graduationAP Calc AB, AP micro/macro, AP history/gov, AP stats	Prep in 9th/10thEnglish 9/10H, World history H, honors math, intro to business
Major/InterestEngineering	Take before graduationAP physics, AP Calc BC, AP CS	Prep in 9th/10thBio H, Chem H (prereqs); introduction to engineering, honors math
Major/InterestHumanities or social science	Take before graduationAP Lit, AP Lang, AP history/social sciences	Prep in 9th/10thEnglish H, world history H
Major/InterestCS	Take before graduationAP physics, AP Calc BC, AP CS	Prep in 9th/10thHonors sciences, introduction to programming, honors math

Danny Yoo: The advantage of starting your planning early (in 9th and 10th grade) is that you're making sure you're mapping up the highest-priority courses for your major early on – so that you're meeting all the prereqs: taking bio and then chem to meet a physics prereq for an engineering/CS major, for example. According to the student’s bandwidth, we can actually adjust the prep coursework as well.

What should 9th and 10th graders focus on when it comes to testing?

Which standardized tests should I take? When?

Danny Yoo: Into standardized testing: what should 9th and 10th graders focus on when it comes to testing? Which standardized test should I take: SAT, ACT? You have the APs too. And then when should you take that: another very contentious topic that's coming up!

There have been a lot of updates (since COVID) on the testing landscape. Colleges will have individually different policies regarding SAT or ACT and test-optional. But we still do recommend that all students take the ACT or SAT – because the data are showing that even test-optional colleges (a lot of them) are preferring to see those scores.

Also, test-optional puts more emphasis on AP exams. The AP exams will be largely part of the four-year planning – because you simply take them in May at the end of the year after you've taken the AP courses. We have a lot of resources that we can recommend to our students to help prepare them for standardized tests.

Standardized testing updates

As many of you might already know, the UCs and CSUs are “test-blind” – which means they will not consider SAT or ACT scores. I believe this past admission season you couldn't even put in your SAT or ACT scores in your initial application to the UCs.

On the other hand, some of the top schools are back to requiring standardized test scores. So you want to check each school's policy.

Anthony Su: Yeah, and this is something that's still in flux for a lot of schools. There are some schools that have said, “We're going to permanently go to test-optional.” They were test-optional for four years (starting in 2020). Definitely something that we'll continue to monitor.

Surprising data in the test-optional era

Danny Yoo: We don’t need to read off everything on this slide, but just to show some hard data of colleges showing a clear preference for standardized test scores: 76% of admitted students at UPenn and 93% of admitted students at Georgetown submitted test scores uh in the 2020-2021 cycle – which is a very clear message!

[Other data on the slide:]

Emory: 17% with vs 8.6% without

Colgate: 25% with vs. 12% without

Georgia Tech: 22% with vs 10% without

Vanderbilt: 7.2% with vs. 6% without

Anthony Su: This is one thing to consider from the perspective of understanding if a test score is still important. This is showing it does [still matter], right?

But I'll also add one more dimension to this. Danny, if you have a student who is particularly not fond of taking tests – or it's getting close to when they would be applying, and they really just don't have the time to study – does this also mean they're completely out of luck? What advice would you give a student like that – who's not as interested?

Danny Yoo: This is why case-by-case is so important – and the context (like you mentioned, Anthony) is so important. We do continue to see successful students who have gone test-optional [not submitted].

In this scenario, we would shift priorities to maybe adding another extracurricular, [or] focusing more on academics. Testing might take a second seat.

Anthony Su: Very rarely an admissions office is going to just look at two test scores (or two GPAs) side by side. They are looking at the whole student. The additional extracurricular or summer programs still can make a difference on an application.

Which activities and involvements should 9th and 10th graders prioritize?

Danny Yoo: Now we're on to, “Which activities and extracurricular involvements should 9th and 10th graders prioritize?”

Activities & involvements

Danny Yoo: [There are] various things that students might be able to do as underclassmen to start exploring their passions. I want to emphasize that (in the early years) it's really breadth over depth. In ninth and tenth grade you want to explore widely – especially if you're unsure of  what major you might want to pursue in college. Really explore actively – so that you can feel confident about the path forward, [and] so that you can spend maybe the second half of 10th grade (or in 11th and 12th grades) to build depth within your major.

What will colleges see?

Danny Yoo: Just to show our families here what the colleges see you from applicants: this slide is actually straight from the Common App.

The activities list section allows for 10 of the student’s top activities to be listed. And you see the descriptions and the role roles of the students, as well as the time commitments of each activity. This is an overview of what the colleges will see.

It makes it very easy to see, “What are the major-related activities? Okay, robotics!” (This student applied for mechanical engineering as first choice, environmental engineering as second choice). You can see a lot of community service activities as well. Some hobbies too – music and then computer technology: modifying keyboards and mice. So you can really see, in one look, how the student has spent their time.

Anthony Su: And I think (also in the reader's perspective) it's very clear the things that are tied to a particular major. Like this introduction to mechanical engineering/material science class. You can also see where the student experimented: where they may have succeeded and where they may have failed. Maybe the student was not particularly interested in law and politics. [That’s listed.] [Maybe] being a hobbyist with the modifications of the keyboards (and things like that) was something he enjoyed, but not something he wanted to continue with. Similar with music: it's very clear that this student really developed his skills as a tenor sax player as well.

Danny Yoo: Right.

Anthony Su: You get to see a little bit of the story behind the student as well. I think this is why the admissions readers are starting to value [and] really emphasize the importance of the extracurriculars.

Danny Yoo: And to piggyback off of that (as a final thought on that slide): a lot of his “hobbies” ended up being great material for his college essays. Another thing to consider.

Also that shows that the early exploration really does count. It really does help.

What is the most valuable way to spend my summers?

Explore!

Danny Yoo: And now the big question: summer planning. While we're on the topic of extracurriculars, how do you build your summers?

Summer inspo

Danny Yoo: [Here are] some ideas for the summer:

• You want to explore various subjects before you get into depth.

• For STEM the preparation starts early. Competitive, prestigious research programs are for students who are over 16 by the time the programs start (usually) – so after 10th grade a lot of students are qualified for that in the upper-class years.

• You want to build your résumé through your exploration. It doesn't have to be a formal program. It could be online classes on Coursera, for example, or competitions, or volunteering, or a pre-college program. There are various ways to have items on your résumé to be ready to apply to those prestigious programs as an upperclassmen.

Anthony Su: Right, and these research programs (some of them) are really hard to get into, and having that set up prior is going to be really valuable.

Summer projects by major

Danny Yoo: Going on the topic of summer projects, a lot of our students like to engage in “passion projects” where they get to set the tone and be creative – and be involved in their potential majors [and] in their fields in a very personally meaningful way.

Major/Interest	Starter Projects	Advanced Projects
Major/InterestBio / Pre-Med	Starter ProjectsOnline class based on topic (Coursera, Edx), Research paper on current biological event, Blog, Facebook page or Instagram on specific topic	Advanced ProjectsScience lab research/published research work, Campus campaign to drink healthier beverages
Major/InterestBusiness	Starter ProjectsResearch paper on business/finance topic, Read 5 business books and blog about them, Informational job interview	Advanced ProjectsStart a school club to teach American business etiquette to international students, Start a series of study habit workshops for 8th graders preparing to go to high school
Major/InterestEngineering / CS	Starter ProjectsBuild robots/model airplanes, Build a copy of a favorite app or website, Participate in a Hackathon	Advanced ProjectsCreate a dance music iPhone app and work to get at least 1000 downloads, Start after-school robotics program for kids in under-resourced neighborhoods
Major/InterestHumanities or Social Science	Starter ProjectsWrite short-stories, poems or plays, Research paper on historical event or current event, Be an English tutor	Advanced ProjectsStart a nonprofit to teach writing to kids in under-resourced neighborhoods, Create a documentary about undocumented students, Publish a book on Amazon

What I want to point out here is the difference between “starter projects” and “advanced projects.” “Starter projects” are more geared toward learning and practicing in your field. Whereas “advanced projects” pivot to a now applying your knowledge and your skills for the greater good – whether it's helping younger kids learn how to program, or starting a non-profit, or community service to impact your community in a positive way.

Colleges want to know what you choose when you have the freedom to choose

It’s okay to try things just to try them, and it’s okay to not like everything you try.

Danny Yoo: Just like Anthony and I mentioned a few slides back, colleges (when they look at your body of work: your activities) are interested in learning more about you: what passions you have.

Oftentimes it's in major. Sometimes it's not necessarily connected to your major, but adds color – a lot of color to your application. So it's definitely okay to try things out. Oftentimes the items that students think aren't résumé-worthy become really good college essay topics to show other facets of yourself.

What should I be doing for college prep or college applications?

Research, visit, record.

Danny Yoo: For college prep, in terms of identifying which colleges you might want to pursue, what would we recommend that you do to prepare?

Research & visits

Danny Yoo: In our mentorship advisory sessions (for example), we would actually do exercises with our students to help them explore.

Some great resources online [are] Niche, BigFuture, Roadtrip Nation – very insider information about the colleges. A lot of times there are testimonials from students who are actually current students at the university – and they're very, very honest. [These websites] can be very good resources.

And then CampusReel [and] YouVisit: these are great resources when you're not able to necessarily visit [in person]. If [you live in California and] you're thinking about an East Coast or Midwest (kind of far away) campus, you can get a feel of the campus life that way.

But we definitely recommend that you contact the schools when you can – and before you go to visit them, try to register for the official college tours. That way you can show “demonstrated interest” in the college ahead of time.

Save yourself from the “Why didn't I write that down?!” phase

Danny Yoo: As you're doing college research, maybe make a list, maybe a spreadsheet, to collect your thoughts on each visit, each college preference. [It’s a] great source of motivation.

And also starting your résumé now. As soon as we start working with even 9th grade students we start drafting their résumé – and then their Common App activities list.

We start working with them so that they can feel comfortable [writing these things]. It's like self-bragging – which isn't always easy. It's hard for adults too. Which is why college essays tend to be so difficult at first. Same thing with the activities descriptions – so we guide our students early on to get a knack of that.

Anthony Su: Some thoughts in particular: this one for Columbia: “Read books and digest culture.” Colombia directly asks you, “What have you recently read?” or, “Tell me about your favorite album or music that you enjoy.” This is also something that is key. Keep in mind, “What are you reading for leisure, compared to things that are required by your school?” as well.

---

Schedule a free consultation with ILUMIN

---

Anthony Su: We do have a few questions already [and we’ll do Q&A soon], but we do offer free consultations for students who are starting this process, trying to get an idea of what it might be like to work with a consultant.

Q&A

Anthony Su: We can go ahead and start the Q&A. We left a lot of time here.

We have a lot of questions around APs, so I think we're going to center there to begin with. There are some questions between BC calc and AB calc. 

In general BC calc is the one that is more difficult. Typically aimed for in 12th grade to either take AB calc or BC calc. For some schools it will be AB in 11th grade, then BC in 12th grade. Is there one in particular that students should be aiming for, Danny?

Danny Yoo: That brings us back to the major. It really depends on the student's major. If you're going for math-heavy majors (like any of the engineering majors, CS…) a lot of competitive colleges like to see at least through BC calc by the end of senior year – if not even sooner in 11th grade.

We do see some students who are able to complete BC calc by 11th grade. [They] either go [with] AP stats in senior year, or even actually go to multivariable calculus at a community college for senior year – to show their aptitude.

For a life science major or humanities major, colleges won't be expecting a non-engineering, non-CS major to complete BC calc. AB calc would actually be a very high accomplishment for the expectation for non-engineering majors.

Anthony Su: Perfect. And there's a question here that says, “I heard you could take BC calc without taking AB and you can get credit for both. Is that true?” I think it's going to depend per [high] school… but Danny, do you have a thought there?

Danny Yoo: It is kind of tricky. My understanding is that it does depend on the school's curriculum. Recently, actually, we were touching up on the four-year plan for underclassmen, and the question came up. At the student’s particular school it was a pre-calc honors – and then once you take pre-calc honors (or accelerated pre-calc) you could either go to AB or BC. The path depends on the school: what the school allows you to do.

Anthony Su: Let's talk about AP languages next – because I'm seeing that come up. Question of, “What would you recommend for students who have exceeded their language options at their school?” The example here is AP French was already completed by the end of junior year. Any next thoughts about what the student should be looking at?

Danny Yoo: Right. Once you've completed an AP level in your language, then maybe senior year it's okay to take an extra elective toward your major. The person who asked the question, did they mention the student’s major?

Anthony Su: No, they didn’t.

Danny Yoo: It would really depend on the major. That's great: you've already exceeded the requirements for pretty much all the schools. 12th grade is when you can take that interesting elective that you've always wanted to take.

Anthony Su: Let me add a twist here: what if the student does want to study French already at that high level. Are there any particular extracurriculars or recommendations and thoughts?

Danny Yoo: That's a great question. That's really interesting. We have actually had students in similar situations before… and they can do a “passion project,” for example. We've had students write books: for example, write a novel in their second language. We actually have a student working on a German novel – and looking to publish that through Amazon, and perhaps donating hard copies to  libraries and charity senior centers… and so really creating a meaningful extracurricular activity using their talent!

I believe for French there are competitions. For most of the foreign languages there are competitions that you can compete in to show your aptitude that way as well.

Anthony Su: And then another language question: is it okay to take a class such as languages outside of the high school, and have it not be part of a school transcript? I think this is very common with, for example, after-school Chinese schools. I know this was a big talk when I went to Chinese school back in the day: can I count that as credit for something?

Danny Yoo: Absolutely. That's definitely an option [taking classes outside your high school]. Even if the class wouldn't be part of your high school transcript, you can still either add it to your activities list as an activity item, or (if it's from a community college or a college) you have your transcript from that course only still sent to the colleges you're applying to.

Anthony Su: There are definitely ways around it. If you really want to take Latin and your school doesn't offer it, I think there are ways around it.

Danny Yoo: Right.

Anthony Su: And then the question of, “Will colleges take into account if a school does not have any honors classes or AP classes?”

Danny You: Absolutely. With college admissions, colleges tend to really assess the students compared to other students at that particular school. That will definitely be taken into account.. They won't be comparing apples to oranges – so they won't be comparing a student who goes to a school that allows them to take thirteen APs by the time they graduate to a student where maybe only five APs are more realistic with their offerings.

Anthony Su: And this is true for a lot of side questions, like, “[As] a 9th grader and a 10th grader my school doesn't let me take APs.” It's the same logic here. The admissions officers will understand your local context and understand that rule is in place by the school district or the high school – and they don't have that expectation for you to take AP classes at 9th or 10th grade.

Danny You: Right.

Anthony Su: The term that admissions officers will always go back to is “evaluating in the local context.”

Danny You: Right.

Anthony Su: Another question about languages. Let me go back to that slide about the A-G requirements so we can look at the actual numbers also:

Letter Code	Subject	Required	Recommended
Letter CodeA	SubjectHistory	Required2 years	Recommended2 years
Letter CodeB	SubjectEnglish	Required4 years	Recommended4 years
Letter CodeC	SubjectMathematics	Required3 years	Recommended4 years
Letter CodeD	SubjectLaboratory science	Required2 years	Recommended3 years
Letter CodeE	SubjectForeign language	Required2 years	Recommended3 years
Letter CodeF	SubjectVPA (arts)	Required1 year	Recommended1 year
Letter CodeG	SubjectCollege prep electives	Required1 year	Recommended1 year

Anthony Su: Here we go: “required” compared to “recommended.” The question here is, “What is the recommendation for languages?” It seems like UC says two [required] but they hear students doing four years for students interested in STEM. 

Danny Yoo: What they're probably referring to [are] maybe top 20 colleges [in] rankings. When you're looking at top 20 colleges – or UCLA, UC Berkeley, colleges that are extremely competitive to get into – a lot of times admissions has gotten so competitive [that] a lot of students max out their course rigor in almost every subject they take – even if it's not in their major. Going back to the STEM student doing all four years of foreign language: that's a prime example of that.

Anthony Su: This thought of four years [of language] for a STEM student seems counter-intuitive: “If you're not going to study French, why'd you take French for four years? Were you super passionate about French?” But, again, a lot of STEM majors potentially might be a little bit more competitive, if you're aiming for really hard-to-get-into schools – recognizing that a lot of those students are maxing out on all the resources that they have, and one of the resources is going to happen to be foreign languages. Students may go up to four years instead of just stopping at two.

I think there still is an argument, though: “I am particularly fond of studying math (or applied math) and I took two years of French and I'm done with it. I don't really like it that much.” There is the argument to also potentially really double down on the extracurriculars for math.

So it's not to say that you must do four years of it, but I think it is important that you have this evaluation – instead of thinking, “I hear people take four years of it. Let's just take four years of it.”

Danny Yoo: Right – prioritizing your extracurriculars, and balancing extracurriculars with academic rigor.

Anthony Su: A lot of these simple questions of, “Is it four years here or two years here?” It's much more complicated than that. The comparison's never, “Is four really that much better than three, that much better than two?” It's all the other things you could have done with their time also – which is much harder. That's a much longer discussion, right?

Danny Yoo: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Su: Good question here: “What if I want to major in humanities but minor in a STEM subject or finance? How would you recommend prioritizing classes or APs?” This student says they're on track to do BC calc by senior year without anything in this over the summer.

Danny Yoo: So majoring in humanities but minoring in STEM?

Anthony Su: Yeah. The student’s also adding context that they're currently thinking about majoring in something like psychology [or] sociology, [with an] interest in law school, [but] wants to consider, also, a minor in STEM.

The critical part is: how important is the minor when you're thinking about course selection?

Danny Yoo: Yeah. That's a really good question – really interesting question.

When you're selecting your high school courses you usually don't have to take into consideration your minor for college. You can assume that you'll be building around your major for college – because the colleges will be evaluating your application for that major. Once you get to the college that you end up attending it's very simple to minor in just about any subject.

Anthony Su: I think the “easy” (quote-unquote) answer here is typically you can add your minor after you get to the college. The vast majority of schools will let you minor in whatever you want. There are very few – unless you're at a very specialized, really competitive [program], like the management and technology program at like UPenn: these harder programs that seem to put two fields together. In that case, definitely, I think you'd want to have this discussion – simply because the major is a lot more difficult to get into.

But yeah, if you have a curiosity for something else, a “major” really is just a set of classes that you've taken, and a “minor” is just a set of classes that you have taken also. You can always just add those classes, typically. For certain schools it'll just be, “CS is really competitive, sorry. You might have to be on the waitlist for classes if you want to do a CS minor.”

But at that point it becomes more of a college list selection question rather than a, “Did I pick the right minor or the right pathway?” – thinking how feasible it is to go in that direction. Hopefully we can discuss that a bit more.

Thank you for sending so many questions! I'm trying to theme the questions when possible. This is a good question. Long story short: a student is generally good in all subjects, gets straight A's, still doesn't know what they really want to study in college, slight interest in data science but not completely sure about the industry or doesn't understand it, and maybe they're also trying to add this additional factor of career and income later on. How would you advise a student to think about uh major pathways and things like that if they're also thinking about future career prospects or things like that?

Danny Yoo: One of the things we do when we onboard underclassmen – one of the first things we do – is a major/career profiler test. It's a 10-15 minute test, multiple choice, very easy to take. It asks about the student’s preferences in a working environment, their strengths, what makes them curious and excited about learning – what field, and what kind of learning they like. And it comes back with dozens of actual career potential career fits. That's actually a very helpful point of starting our discussion to identify some real careers out there that might interest you.

Once the student identifies a few, then we look into majors and colleges: what majors feed into those careers that you're interested in, and which colleges are strong in those majors? The second part would be the major/college exploration exercise that we do with all of our underclassmen. Oftentimes that really helps clarify a lot of the questions about pay, about the work-life balance, types of work out there, how to make an impact in that career…

Quite recently I had a similar situation where the student – all A student, straight A’s coming into high school – their passions really ran the gamut: art, architecture, computer game development, English writing… Part of our discussions were to do the profile tests and college major exercises – but also getting a little bit creative and looking at Indeed job posts (for example) to see real live job posts out there – as well as recommending summer programs and online learning opportunities that can be easily done over a weekend. This student ended up doing a program over winter break in AI and machine learning, fell in love with data science and machine learning/AI, and now feels very confident about pursuing CS, data science, and related majors.

Anthony Su: Definitely being able to look at Indeed and figure out, “What are folks hiring for these days?”

Good question here. Also a little bit more… I don't know if “vague” is the right word, but a little bit more broad, perhaps. How would a student know what they want to major in? Are there any things [in which] you would particularly advise students, in terms of how they would evaluate it for themselves?

Danny Yoo: That's a really good question.

It goes back to the major and college research exercise that we do with students. Most of us, when we think of majors, we don't know exactly what the requirements are once the student goes to college – and what kind of courses they will be taking. We actually walk through [with] the students to research a handful of colleges that are strong in their majors of interest – and actually write down and examine what the curriculum is [and] what the required courses are.

It's incredible how informative that is for the student. Not only do you see the course titles that are required for a particular major, you can see the course descriptions: so what you’ll be learning. That really helps gauge the student’s interest. When you're looking at the course descriptions and titles, if it seems boring, that's a sign that maybe you need to move onward to another major. But if it looks really exciting, you can have confidence that that might be the right major.

Anthony Su: Almost like breaking up the major into its composite parts of which classes.

There's always that unassuming class that maybe you'll love as well! My favorite class was a class called “Real Options.” It's a really weird, unassuming name… but it had to do with options trading and managing. That was super cool. But it's like, “real options”? I don't know what that is! It's hard to evaluate sometimes – but at least you get a general idea of what's coming your way.

I think we only have a couple more minutes. We can discuss this one. The question is centered specifically around biotechnology, but I think this is a good one also for majors where it might be harder for students to find extracurriculars for [them]. Maybe something like microbiology or civil engineering – things like that. How would you recommend a student get their hands-on research experience (or something for their résumé) when it is a little bit harder – [or] for students that might be a little bit older. What would you recommend as a first step for students with those interests?

Danny Yoo:

A really good first step – sort of the low-hanging fruit – [is] online courses. Great way to start! Whether it's biotech or environmental science or environmental engineering, if you go to Coursera (for example) you can actually search for those different majors and topics – and you'll see dozens (sometimes hundreds) of free courses that you can take. Some courses take one to four hours to complete – so very easy. Some courses are longer – maybe a few weeks to complete, like a certification.

Once you have that, then we would look at different programs that maybe don't require jumping through hoops, so to speak: don't require too many essays or requirements, more accessible intro-level programs. That would be the next step after independent learning.

It's like a snowball. You're really building your résumé to be able to apply to the more competitive programs.

Anthony Su: When you think of online classes, a lot of folks just think, “But you're doing it for nothing!” The point of the online class is not to get credit. It is just, “Let's test if this is something that you're actually interested in. Can you sit and do a 4-6 hour course: really work through it and really be interested in it?”

Or is that something that's just gonna go in one ear and come out the other? And then maybe that's not your major, or you're not that interested. Even knowing that that's not your major is still valuable – especially for younger students. It's still an indicator that can be helpful.

A question about applying for different majors for different schools by the time you're in 12th grade. It looks like this student has an interest in political science and economics, which are close enough (I think) that a lot of your extracurriculars might overlap. But let's say there's a student with anthropology and astrophysics: two completely opposite-end interests in majors. How would you recommend a student build their course selection [and] their extracurriculars with that in mind: “I think it's one of these two, but they're really far apart!”

Danny Yoo: We would tend to encourage selecting one option – so that it's a little bit easier for the student to build depth in that potential major. But there are cases where the student really can't decide. It's really 50-50 – they love both and they want to explore [both] in college. And in that case that would be the “undeclared” option [for major].

When a student is thinking about [applying] undeclared because they have two or three different passions, what we would discuss would be brainstorming what kind of impact the student might want to make on the world in general – and then how these different passions might they fit into the impact they might want to make in the world.

The reason why we start brainstorming this question is because of the essays. A lot of colleges will be asking the “why major” essay: “Why do you want to major in this one you selected?” It's going to be the same with “undeclared.” You're going to want to explain how you know your various passions might be applied toward a certain goal that you might have in life.

Anthony Su: And it's no easy question to answer: problems you want to solve that will impact this world!

It seems far-fetched, but, again, you don't literally need to go do them right now! But being able to articulate that is something that will hopefully help you 1) understand your interests a little more, but also 2) when it comes to the essays, and you really need to explain that, you'll have a chance to really discuss that.

We are out of time for today, but if you want to continue the conversation, or you have additional questions, we're happy to chat some more. We do have our free consultations – and definitely happy to chat with everyone here if you're interested, or have some additional thoughts about specific majors, specific interests, or extracurriculars.

We will be back next week. We'll be doing a webinar next Tuesday, same time, and the Tuesday after. Next week we'll talk about GPA and other admission factors with Dayna. The week after, we'll be giving a timeline for rising 12th graders getting ready to tackle that admissions process. Definitely stay tuned!

Okay, thanks everyone for joining us today!

Danny Yoo: Thank you everyone.

Anthony Su: Bye.