Webinar Transcript: How to Stand Out as a Pre-Med Applicant

Sagrika Jawadi (she/they): Thanks for coming tonight, making time for our pre-med Q&A. Let's get started. I can introduce myself, and then we'll have Robert introduce himself, and then we'll start with the questions.

I’m Sagrika; I use she/they pronouns. I've been working for ILUMIN for about a year now. I work as an essay specialist, so I help students with editing their college application essays. I also was a neuroscience major in college and was pre-med – so I'm excited to share with you all a little bit of insight into that experience!

Rob Browne: Hi everyone. I am Rob Browne. I am a consultant here with ILUMIN. I've been with the group for over a year now. Previously I was an interview trainer and an essay specialist.

I actually started my career in dentistry. I did that for about 30 years. Technically I still have my license – but I haven't done it for the last couple.

I live out in the New York metropolitan area. So it's a little bit cooler than for those of you out west; I apologize! I grew up in northern New Jersey, went to the University of Pennsylvania, [and] did a combined dental/undergraduate program (which is called their Bio-Dental program). Back then it was six years; now it's seven years.

Most of my dental career [was] in public health, hospitals, dental schools, nursing homes… I did some private practice.

From the consultant's standpoint, I'm a graduate of the University of California Riverside College Admissions Counseling program. I've been an alumni interviewer for Penn. I also did admissions work for the Northwell Health General Practice Dental Residency for a number of years.

I've been working with students from high school, college, dental school, and residency. Happy to be here and share whatever knowledge I can with all of you.

Sagrika: Okay, we have some questions to start out with – and then we'll transition into all of your questions. We're just gonna warm up with a few of our own questions.

One of the first questions we have is, “What do application readers look for in a pre-med applicant?

Rob: At the undergrad level – meaning high school students applying to colleges or university – they want to see (obviously) strong grades overall, but really looking for strong coursework in the sciences and math. They're really looking to make sure you've got everything covered: biology, chemistry, physics, calculus… If you could take statistics, that'd be great also.

The more selective schools are going to be looking at the higher level versions: the AP levels. The less selective schools certainly would appreciate the APs, but you have a little bit more flexibility – in terms of taking regular level or honors level. But you do want to make sure that you have all of your basic sciences covered.

If you do something like an elective anatomy and physiology [course], that's certainly great also. If you have the opportunity to take any kind of biochemistry course – whether that's through a summer program, or an online course through something like edX or Coursera – also a benefit as well.

But [at] the bare minimum, you want to make sure you have those foundational courses in bio, chem, physics, [and] calculus.

Sagrika: Definitely. And to add on to that, I think it's important also, in your essays and activities, to be demonstrating some kind of interest in the medical field.

Obviously colleges are aware that, as a 17-year-old [or] 18-year-old, you don't have access to very many experiences – but showing that the things that you've been spending your time on, and the way that you write an essay about your academic interest, is really portraying that you have done something to create this interest. This interest is coming from somewhere!

And I also want to note that I think a common misconception for folks is that “pre-med” is a major. It is not a major! It is you wanting to go to med school – and you have your own major. That major can be biology: something very sciency. It doesn't have to be something very sciency.

It's important to know that “pre-med” is not an actual major. So when you're filling out your college applications, don't put “pre-med” as your major!

Rob: I'm just going to piggyback on yours for a moment. In addition to the coursework, and writing those intentional essays, you do want to make sure that you also really dig deep and figure out: do you really want to do this as a career? [The] best ways of doing that: shadowing a physician or a dentist or anybody else in the health professional field. If you're thinking about doing physical therapy or occupational therapy [or] nursing, shadowing is a really great opportunity.

It was tough for the last few years with COVID; obviously a lot of offices were limiting having additional people in the offices. But with the numbers going down, thankfully a lot of offices are opening back up – allowing high school students to shadow.

I would say, for students, [a] really great thing you could do [is to] reach out to the connections in your community. Start there. If you have a pediatrician or a general practi[tioner], or an internist, [or] a general dentist… ask them, can you come in? Can you do it regularly? Can you only do it once? Some people will [only] let you come in once. Some will say, “You know what, come in weekly! That would be great!”

You can also maybe do a variety of offices: a general practitioner, a specialist… You could reach out to hospitals and nursing homes in your areas to volunteer. These places are happy to have extra hands. You can help patients – which is a great thing to learn. You can also develop a relationship with these patients: learn about them. And also really pick the brains of the specialists and the staff. That's a great possibility.

Also if you could get a job at these offices – some places are hiring for front desk positions! Part-time is fine. Sometimes it might be on a weekend. But once you've been into the office, more places than not are willing to have you hang out, ask questions… and most professionals are really happy to share their experiences with students.

Sagrika: Definitely. And then, going off on what you just said, what majors are best for pre-med? And are there any majors that don't fit well?

Rob: Yeah, it's a great [point] you brought up there – because so many people do think there's a “pre-med” major. No.

The thing that you have – once you are in a college or university. and you have this goal of going to medical school, dental school… – you have to take certain required courses. Generally those are intro-level calculus, general chemistry, two courses in organic chemistry, intro-level physics… Some schools will also ask you to do a couple writing courses. Some will ask for biochemistry. Some also ask for some intro-level psychology courses.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what major you have – as long as you take those courses, you could be any major. Now, with that said, some majors are easier than others to fit [around] those requirements. I was a psychology major; it was easy. Some of those courses counted towards my major, so that was really helpful. But you could be an English major, a history major, [a] business major…

Probably the hardest thing is being an engineering major – because that is such a regimented curriculum that it may be difficult to find extra electives to be able to do [the pre-med requirements]. But it's not out of the question! If you did something like biomedical engineering, certainly it's possible. (But – if you are going that route – you do want to check with each individual college or university and say, “Is there a possibility for me to be a pre-med student while doing this major?”)

I would say that, honestly, when you talk to admissions staffs at medical schools [or] at dental schools, they really value the people that are taking majors outside of the traditional natural sciences. They bring a lot of perspective – and skills that aren't found through the natural sciences. If, let's say, you were a business major, that's one of the things that's not covered very well in medical school or dental school: the business side of of practicing medicine – opening up a business. [A business major can be] really helpful.

If you have a liberal-arts oriented major, you will develop creative thinking, analytical reasoning, [and] better writing skills, [and] will really stand out – not only while you're in school, but also beyond: if you're looking to be a department head, [or] lead a medical organization at the local or national level.

You should not narrow your choices [of major] because of pre-med. As long as you can fit those requirements in, anything is fair game!

Sagrika: There are actually many medical schools that value students who are humanities majors – which is English, history… that kind of stuff. They like that you would have a very broad range of experience. I think one of those schools is George Washington University in DC: the Medical School really values that!

Also, I want to add that it will depend on the institution you're going to. For example, if you're going to a big UC, it's gonna be hard to get into classes… and if you're majoring in something completely unrelated to science, they might not prioritize you for those classes. And then you might end up getting delayed.

Because, also, a big thing about pre-med is [that] everything builds on each other. You can't take organic chemistry until you take general chemistry, and then you can't take biochemistry until you've taken general and organic. You can't take an upper-division biology class until you've taken a 101. It all builds on each other. Which means if you get behind – even a semester – that can mean that you have to graduate later to finish those courses.

It's really unfortunate – because it doesn't provide a lot of flexibility. But it's just something to be aware of: in those bigger institutions, that might be more difficult. Personally, I see that as a good reason to look into smaller schools and liberal arts colleges – where you get a lot more flexibility, and a lot more one-on-one attention and mentorship with being a pre-med student.

I think Rob basically covered all of them. Physics is also a big one. And those courses are not only requirements to apply to the med school, but they're also very important when taking the MCAT – which is like the SAT of med school. That's another reason to take those courses!

I had one other thing that I wanted to say. It'll probably come to me later. But, yeah, those are my thoughts on that whole “What majors are best?” Like Rob said, I don't think there's any major that doesn't fit. Everything is useful.

Someone wrote in the Q&A, “Why do they want calculus?” Really, when you get down to science, it’s always interconnected. Calculus is the foundation of physics, which is the foundation of chemistry, which is the foundation of biology. That's why they want you to know that: it's all really interconnected. No, you're not gonna be taking derivatives when you're a doctor, but you are going to be looking at the rates of things – and that's where derivatives come from. That's why you have to know these things.

And that's just how the system is right now. There are a lot of things you're not going to be using when you're actually a doctor that you just have to know to get into medical school!

Okay, the next question is, “How would you find good-fit schools for pre-med?”

Rob: You really mentioned something fantastic there about the smaller schools – the liberal art colleges! So many times students will come to me looking for a college, and they'll say, “Well, I want a small student-to-faculty ratio, and I understand that’s really valuable.” And then they'll pivot and say, “But I want to go to this large university!” Okay, yes… but if you really want that close relationship with your faculty, liberal art colleges are probably the best place to look for it!

Not only is it typically a very small student-to-faculty ratio, but the primary goal for these professors is to teach! Research is still done, but it's not at the same level – in terms of their commitment. Their primary goal is to teach. Research is more of a secondary situation. Whereas it's reversed at the research universities.

Another really big benefit of the liberal arts school is research. It doesn't seem like it. You know, “The research universities have more money!” Well, the liberal arts schools – especially the more prestigious ones – definitely have enough money – and lots of money to be doing the research. But the big benefit is you don't have to compete with graduate students. That's a huge thing!

When you're at a larger research university [and] you show up as a first-year student… you could try and cold-call a professor. Most of the time universities have a dedicated “research opportunities program” office that will give you a list of the professors and what they're doing. I always recommend students – as soon as you put that deposit down for your school – start looking at that site, and start trying to get your foot in the door to work at a professor's laboratory or in their clinic. But you're still going to be competing with grad students. They are the primary group that have to work and do the research. You are – as an undergrad – a secondary person in that department.

So there is a big benefit – lots of benefits – for the liberal arts schools.

With that said, what's a good fit for pre-med? On some level, [all] the schools are very similar. I know there are rankings out there. As a consultant, I don't like to look at the rankings. I think that puts too much pressure and bias for people.

To me, bio 101 is taught similarly at most colleges and universities across the country. Organic chemistry. General chemistry. Calculus. These are courses that are very similar. And there are so many great professors out there. They are not all concentrated into the top 25 schools in this country! They are spread throughout the country. You're going to get great professors teaching foundational knowledge. And I think that's really important.

So what do you look for? How do you divide [and] separate them? One part of it is research. If you're interested in that: how much of a commitment is the school putting towards that? How much money do they have? How much of an increase in their budget do they have for research?

Another thing I think is really important is the opportunities outside the classroom. We talked about this earlier – about shadowing, about working at an office… If you go to a school that's a little bit more remote, what are your options during the school year, or in the summer, to work in an office, to visit an office, to pick somebody's brain? If you're in a more remote area, it may be a bit more difficult. If you're in a suburban area or an urban area, you're going to have more opportunities; there could be a larger health system associated with that university. There could be a lot of practitioners in the area: just a greater number of people who are willing to have you come in and join their office, join their lab, join their clinic. So that could be a little bit of a separation between schools.

But certainly a lot of them, academically, are going to meet the requirements you need.

Some students and families, parents, will say, “What are the chances that this school will get somebody into medical school? What's the success rate?” This is a closely-held secret that most schools will not tell you: it's hard for them to track, because a number of their students apply to medical school or dental school afterwards – after they leave. So [the universities] don't know! But most schools don't really announce that. If you go on a college tour, or you meet with an admissions officer from a school, you can ask them. I don't know if you'll get a response, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

If the school does have a very strong reputation, and it does have a good success getting people into medical school, that's another factor to look for as well.

I'm not sure if you have other thoughts on that.

Sagrika: I just remembered the note I was gonna say for the other question about majors – thinking about class requirements. Another way to give yourself a little bit more flexibility is to take classes over the summer, and to take community college classes for some requirements. That's totally fine. [For] the more rigorous [classes], you don't want to do that… but for (for example) a psychology requirement, you can definitely just take that at a community college. Then you have more space in your schedule for the four years.

Or even, I know some people take community college classes in high school. I think those can also eventually end up helping you. If you take them (I think) after you graduate, they can count as part of the classes that you took [for] going to med school.

But yeah – at the end of the day – I agree that any school is gonna give you the tools you need to go to medical school. The eliteness of the [undergrad] school is not super important when thinking about going to medical school. Medical schools take into account the average GPA of a student, and compare that to your GPA – so you don't have to worry about there being [grade] inflation at some schools, and deflation. That's all taken into account. Really it comes down to what is best for you.

Another important thing is this culture of students. Some schools are more competitive than others. Personally, I thrive in a more collaborative environment – and so that was something I looked for when I was applying. I actually went to Scripps College – so that's why I love liberal arts colleges! It's one of the Claremont colleges, and the student-to-faculty ratio was about 20 to 1. I was never taught by a TA, and I had great relationships with my professors.And there was a pre-med advisor that was always available to talk with me – and whom I had a personal relationship with all four years. So I, personally, think it's a great way to go if you're pre-med!

One of the reasons I chose Scripps was because I knew I was pre-med and I wanted to have that low [student-to-faculty] ratio – and that was really important to me. And, like Rob said, there were so many research opportunities for first-years – because there are no grad students to compete with. And professors care about students more so than in those big schools (just because in those big schools, research is really emphasized). So they are willing to train first-years to be in their lab and work with them, and help students find labs if their lab isn't open. That's a big reason to really think about a small school!

The last thing I'll say is right now there are a lot of informational sessions for undergraduate schools – that you may or may not be attending. If you are attending those, feel free to ask, “How many pre-meds are generally in one class?” And, “How many get into med school?” They may or may not answer that. And, “What is the student culture like?” You'll be able to tell.

I think, also, it would be great to try to reach out to students. A lot of these informational sessions sometimes have students there – or they have those “overnights” where you can visit the campus or for a day [and] overnight. Ask students then. They'll be honest with you about what the culture is like, and how easy it is!

I didn't hear from any admissions person how difficult it is to get classes. I heard that from my friends – who were at the UCs, saying, “I tried to register for classes and it was so difficult! And now I'm graduating in five years.” Which is fine, obviously. The UCs have a lot of great things going for them. It's just something to know when you're thinking about where you want to go, and where you're applying, and all that kind of stuff.

I think those are really the things to take into account when you're thinking about what school to go to.

Rob: You bring up so many great topics every time you're talking – it's so awesome. I guess I'll move to the college level on some of this. Whatever major you're doing, whatever school you're going to – the key is to do well.

When I've talked to admissions officers at the medical school and the dental school level, they will say to me, “Look, we have remediation programs in place, but we don't have a lot of them – and we don't have a lot of time for them!”

When you get to the medical school the dental school level, it is serious vocational training. And so they don't really have to [hold your hand]. If you can't cut it, then there are some ways to help you, but not many. So when they're looking at college students to admit, they are looking to make sure (to the best of their ability) that they can predict who is going to do well.

Now, their research shows that [it’s] people with strong GPAs – especially within the pre-med requirements – and also people with strong MCATs, or the DAT (that's the dental equivalent of the SAT and the ACT).

They don't care as much about the name on the diploma – as much as they care about students that have succeeded at the undergraduate level. Can they handle the workload? That's really important. Then there are other things that we may end up talking about as well – like shadowing, research…

All the things we talk about for a high school student to get into a college or university all show up again at the next level! [It’s] important you have strong standardized test scores. You have to have a strong GPA. You have to take strong classes in high school. But then you supplement it with online courses, a summer program, shadowing opportunity, volunteer, research… Same thing at the undergraduate level!

One thing you mentioned was a pre-med advisor. Wherever you end up, that person is one of your best friends on campus. That is a person who's going to help you traverse the craziness of what's going on at the undergrad level, to get to the next level. That is a person who is going to be writing a letter of recommendation for you.

Some schools may take it from a professor; they may not. But they will all ask for a pre-med advisor. That person is going to help you. That's going to be your advocate to apply to medical schools. That's going to be a person who's going to be your advocate for getting internships and research and job placement. So that is the person you want to really befriend very quickly!

And I guess it goes to your idea of, again, the smaller school and the larger school. With a smaller school, usually, you may not have the same amount of [faculty] in the department, but you usually have a smaller student-to-advisor ratio than in a bigger school. It's another thing to keep in mind.

Sagrika: Yeah, definitely. Okay, I'm gonna transition us to Q&A – just so we make sure to get to everyone's questions!

One that I want to start with is: someone asked, “Can you talk a little bit more about the B.S./D.D.S. program?” I think the six year/seven year program you did?

Rob: Yeah. I mean, I could talk about both the B.S./M.D. and the B./M.D. – or the dental version. My program didn't define it[self] as a B.S./M.D.; I have a Bachelor of Arts in psychology. But the same idea holds true.

These are combined programs: undergrad/graduate. As a high school student, you would apply – and you go through two levels of evaluation. You're going to be evaluated by the undergraduate college or university: do you meet their requirements? And then you're going to be evaluated by the medical school or the dental school.

Typically the medical school and the dental school (for the ones that have this program) reserve a couple seats in each class for these high school students. Not many! I do want to let people know that it's highly competitive! When people talk about the most selective schools: Harvard, Yale, Stanford – schools with three four [or] five percent acceptance rates… the combined medical programs, even at a less selective university, are still harder to get into than Harvard, Stanford, and Yale!

For example, I work at Virginia Commonwealth. At the undergraduate level, probably an 85% acceptance rate. Our B.S./M.D. program – or the guaranteed admissions medical program – had a 1%-2% acceptance rate. So you can see: it's really hard to get into!

I guess dental (compared to medical) has a little bit higher acceptance rate – because there are not as many people applying.

What are the benefits? These are seven [or] eight year programs. There are no longer any six-year programs that I'm aware of – which I think is a real big positive!

If you get into one of these programs, a couple big benefits: One, typically you don't need to have as high a GPA. For example, from my experience, I had to maintain a 3.0 GPA – which is certainly not the same as if I had to try and get a 4.0! It gave me freedom as a student.

Also, in terms of the MCAT or Dental Aptitude Test, you don't have to get as high a mark as possible. For me, I had to meet the national average – certainly not that that's easy, but it's not very hard as well. That was a real big plus: just having that seat safe.

The pandemic certainly did not change anything. In some ways, it made it even more competitive! Dental schools, medical schools… these are hard places to get into. Just like the undergrad level, where [at] a lot of schools the [admissions] numbers are declining, medical and dental school admission rates are declining also. Locking in a seat certainly takes some of the pressure off as well!

There also can be an economic benefit. If you're doing a seven-year program, you're paying for three years of undergraduate versus four. Certainly a benefit .

In the long run, is that going to save you anything, when you're 50 years of age? No. It really isn’t. It's going to be more anecdotal than anything else. But at a younger age – with the cost of college and universities now – that's nothing to ignore: having one fewer year to have to pay for, or take loans out for. That's a big positive.

I guess if I were to think about the other side of the coin (what are some things that may not be as ideal about these programs?)… one is you have to make a decision very early in your life – 15, 16, [or] 17 years of age. You have to plan out: “Do I want to be a physician? Do I want to be a dentist?”

There are some people that have this drive – and it's arrived at a very early age. There are other people that think, “That's what I'm supposed to do,” – whether that's societal pressures, whether that's familial pressures, expectations… So there are some people that are really passionate about it, and some people that think they're passionate about it. And there is a bit of a difference! As someone who has done interviews for a residency program, I can tell you: I met a lot of people who were years older than the typical student who went to college and then medical school or dental school. And we would talk to them: “What happened? What's going on?”

“Well, I started out as an engineer; I started out as a business person; I started out in sales. I did something else, and I just felt that that wasn't for me.” We do find that people change careers, and they change ideas. So coming up with that idea [that you want to be a dentist/doctor] at a young age, you've got to be very, very certain – and have you figure that out.

You do research. You do shadowing opportunities. You take career tests. You take personality tests. Do you match with this? There are the things that you think fit for you, and then there are the things that some more objective assessments may confirm or change. So that's something to really consider.

Another part of this is the idea that when you're doing seven or eight years in a row, it's taxing. There's an amazing aspect of the undergraduate years: exploring figuring things out, taking electives, really figuring out who you are and where you fit in the world. When you get to medical school or dental school, from the very first day you get there they make it really obvious to you: that you are here to learn a craft – a really important craft. And they expect you there at eight o'clock in the morning, and they expect you there until five o'clock or later in the evening. That's not a big deal if you're really into it, but to do that many years – seven or eight years straight – can be taxing. And then, when you talk about the world of medicine, you may add on an internship and a residency in a sub-specialty – so you could be looking at 12 years!

With these programs, many of them will not allow you to take a break. You could take a gap year between high school and undergrad. You have to double-check with a school: “Would you allow me to take a year between undergrad and medical school or dental school?” because that really could be a really helpful thing for a student to take that time off.

One, if you get a job: never a bad idea to have money in your pocket. It's really helpful. Also gets you to recharge your battery: emotionally, physically, academically. It also inspires you when you do get to the medical school or dental school: “I'm ready for this! I'm not going to worry about the individual test; I've got the perspective of putting this in the big picture.”

Sometimes the B.S./M.D. program doesn't allow you that flexibility. That's something to think about as well.

I'm certainly willing to answer any more questions. I don't know if I answered that person's question completely. And I'm more than happy to expand on it if he or she would like.

Sagrika: I think that was great. I don't really have anything to add, to be honest.

I'll say – from my experience – I did apply to B.S./M.D. programs. And, as Rob said, they are highly competitive – literally 1% acceptance rates for all of them. For example, Brown has a B.S./M.D. program. You can only imagine how much (exponentially) more competitive it gets – when Brown is already a competitive undergraduate school! All that is to say: do not be discouraged if you don't get into them! I didn't, and then I was still pre-med, and I had a great time.

In fact, I was really grateful – because I was able to take a gap year, and I was able to actually explore and think through: I'm pre-med, I'm not pre-med. It allows a lot more flexibility. It's really important to be very, very sure that you want to be a doctor if you're going to be applying to these programs!

And yeah, volunteering at a hospital or hospice is a great way to do that. Shadowing positions. Any kind of clinical experience, too, that you can get: something where you're working with patients. Whether it be (in this day and age) administering COVID tests, or assisting a doctor in a clinic. Even at the beginning stages, when you're still applying to colleges, even helping out a PT, helping out an OT, helping out a chiropractor. All these things help you expose yourself to the day-to-day of helping patients with various health concerns – which is what you'll be doing as a doctor. And it will help you really see if this is what you can see yourself doing, and what you can see yourself working really hard for eight plus years to do!

Rob: Yeah, and I'll say also – with the B.S./M.D.’s (or B./M.D.’s) – people see that, and all of a sudden… it's like when you see those schools with the low acceptance rates! It's like, all of a sudden, there's like a glow that comes from them – and people start getting a little biased, and they start wanting to grab that gold ring!

Be careful about a B.S./M.D. program that's less prestigious. One of the things about medical school is you really should be looking at a strong medical school that has a good track record of getting people into a residency program. If you go to a less prestigious or lower-ranking [med school]… I'm not so concerned at the undergrad level; at the medical school level, there's a big difference.

If you go to a lesser-quality medical school in one of these combined programs because, “I'm excited: I don't have to take that big MCAT score!” or, “I've got that locked-in acceptance!” That sounds great, but – years later, when you're applying for residencies – you may have trouble getting into those. And you cannot get a medical license without doing one of these programs!

Dentistry is not like that – thankfully! There are two states in the country that require a one-year residency program, but 48 of the states allow you to finish dental school and go out and do private practice. So it's not as big a concern on that level.

But I will say, there are students that I've met – really exceptional students – that will say, “Well, I'm going to apply to this combined program. I'm not really thrilled so much about the undergrad school but, again, my goal is the medical school.” And I'll say, “That's great, but are you really happy to spend three to four years at that undergrad school? If you're not, then don't apply to that program!”

Or if you change your mind. Now, [for] all of these combined programs, you're not locked in like it's the military or anything! If you change your mind and decide you don't want to be a physician or a dentist, you can get out of the programs. But then you're at a school that you may not have chosen a few years earlier – if someone said to you, “Are you willing to go to this school just for the three or four years?”

“Oh no, not that!”

Well then don't put that on your list!

The other thing I would say, if you are thinking about applying to these programs: you have got to be an objectively super strong candidate. And that goes to the things that were mentioned earlier. You have to have strong GPA, and strong classes. Even during COVID, when tests were being canceled around the country, the combined programs were saying, “We still want to see a test score.” And it's got to be a high test score – in the mid 1500’s or higher! You've got to have the shadowing, the research… Even if it was virtual during the pandemic, you still had to find opportunities to do this!

So many times I see students that are not at the top of those kind of metrics, and they're still saying, “I think I'll apply to two or three or four of these B.S./M.D. programs.” On the one hand, there's no harm in doing that. But, emotionally, it's tough to not get an interview at these programs. It takes time away from your other applications. And, also, it just sets up a false sense of expectation.

Really, if you are going to consider those, you have to be very intentional from ninth grade on – and very successful in the way colleges look at that: grades, GPA, strength of schedule, test scores…

Sagrika: Yeah, and you can still go to med school even if you don't [go to these combined programs]. So it's okay.

Rob: 100%!

Sagrika: And another thing: there actually is a B.A./D.O. program (and D.O. is another type of medical school) at one of the Claremont Colleges. I had a lot of friends in that program. And one thing I think worth pointing out is (and I think this is true with a lot of those programs) they choose your major, they choose their classes, they choose your schedule. Everything is done for you – you just keep going!

That is important to know going into this like. It's not going to be an exploration. It's gonna be like what Rob was saying about med school: about how they're preparing you for a craft. That's B.S./M.D. – they're already starting that, earlier. They're like, “We're preparing you for med school.” It definitely changes your undergraduate experience.

And that could be good and bad. It just depends on what you're interested in, and what you want to do. And you can always get out of it!

Another question here – I think a really fast one: “Will any AP scores be able to waive the requirements for med school?”

Rob: You have to check with each institution. I'm out here in the New York Area. Stony Brook will say (I think it's Stony Brook; don't hold me to that!) but there are schools that will say, “If you use the AP [scores], we expect you to take a similar departmental course. Fine, you got out of bio 101 and 102, but we expect you to take another two other bio courses in their place!”

Sagrika: That's what I've seen. It definitely depends on the school.

I've seen some flexibility with AP Psychology: where you can get out of “intro to psychology,” and then all you have to do is take an upper division psychology course. I have seen that some schools don't allow that for any other class. I would say, definitely, [for] chemistry, biology, physics… it's gonna be pretty hard for them to take an AP test score instead of the college class!

But then, [for] undergrad, sometimes AP scores can help. You have to be aware if they're saying, “You have a five in your AP Chemistry; you're out of intro to chemistry.” Maybe you still [have to] take it anyways, because med schools are probably going to require it.

So just keep that in mind with the AP scores.

Another question: “What kind of summer programs will benefit or stand out in this kind of application (premed or B.S./M.D.)?”

Rob: I would say that the programs that give you some hands-on experience are probably beneficial. I personally did summer research at the University of Iowa for several years. One year I was at the medical school, one year I was at the dental school. There are these programs that give you lectures. I used to get weekly lectures from specialists – and then I would work in the lab. And I wrote a research abstract at the end of the summer! Those kinds of programs are really helpful.

Of course, they're not the only avenue. These programs do tend to be expensive – so you do want to be aware of that. And I think, for schools, they understand that. Colleges [and] universities understand that. And so they value other experiences also.

If there's something that's at a university, and it's local… that may be an option to cut down some of the costs and still be able to take advantage of those experiences. If you can just work at your local hospital, that's another thing as well. We've talked about shadowing opportunities, volunteering at hospice centers, nursing homes, physician’s office, getting a job… whether you're at the local blood center, you're working for a local medical organization, dental organization… those are beneficial!

But in terms of the structured university programs: ones that deal with research; ones that allow you to get some kind of shadowing clinic experience. Some that introduce you to different medical and dental specialists. Those are always valuable as well.

Sagrika: Yeah. There are plenty of jobs out there – that I believe are allowed for 18 and over. A lot of them require training, but they can be really great. Like EMT: working in an ambulance – very rigorous, but you'll definitely get a lot of valuable experience. And, really, if you like that, then you probably are in the right space! (And if you don't like that, you might still be good to be a doctor, honestly – because that's very rigorous!)

And then there's also “certified nursing assistant.” (You're required to take a really quick six-week course.) They often work in hospice, or in hospitals. There are lots of jobs like that – that are relatively low barrier to entry, [and] that give you a lot of valuable experience.

If that's not really something you're looking for, the best thing to do is to really use your connections, and reach out to those doctors that you know personally: whether it be a family friend, or I would guess almost everyone here has their own pediatrician or a family physician. Reach out to them; they're the perfect starting point. Even if they don't have availability, they know a ton of doctors; they can point you in the right direction. That's a great place to start.

And just start by saying, “Can I help out?” or “Can I shadow?” If you are consistent [at the shadowing/volunteering], naturally you're gonna start getting more responsibilities, and it'll start growing. If you start now, by the time you're applying to med school (in like four years) you'll have a really, really strong amount of experience!

That's not really summer programs, but I think those are the best things you could do. Like Rob said, there are great research programs. And anything that really shows that you have sought out experiences related to medicine will help you stand out.

I also saw another question: “Do I really have to volunteer in a hospital setting?” You don't have to. If you can, it's great, but you definitely don't have to – if it's really really hard to find opportunities.

I know a lot of you are based in the Bay Area. I volunteered at the hospital in Burlingame: the Mills-Peninsula Health Center. They're always receiving applications for high school students – so that's a great place to start if you're interested in that!

But yeah, you don't have to.

Rob: Yeah, out here in New York, we will have vaccine drives. There are public health drives into the community. They are always asking for people to help out! Certainly during COVID they needed volunteers. But even if it's not in a direct patient-facing role, it's still helping everybody out – and you get to spend time with all of the medical personnel!

So there are definitely many different ways that you can seek out volunteer opportunities. It doesn't always have to be at a hospital or a nursing home or a hospice center. No, absolutely not!

And you talked about that idea of working at a physician's office, getting a CNA license… From the dental perspective, you could get a dental assisting license. It's not easy, but it's also not incredibly difficult as well. That would allow you to get a job. Again, this is something that colleges love: extracurriculars that have intention, and show a connection (and a theme) to the career you may want.

But it's that idea that you're working for an extended period of time. You're not just necessarily doing this for a summer. If you've got a dental assisting certificate, you could work at offices for a couple of years and, again, that shows longevity on top of the thematic connection!

Going back to that AP question, I'm going to pivot from that a little bit. One of the things we didn't talk about was post-bacc programs. Let's say you don't really figure out, right away, that you want to be in medicine. There's always another option. After you've graduated, you could do these post-baccalaureate programs they do.

Those are programs that allow you to take all the pre-med or pre-dental requirements. If you've taken some of them at the college level, great; you get to place out of those, so it may not take as long for you to do. There are definitely ways if you don't figure out you want to be a physician or a dentist right away; it's not over for you! You still have a chance after college at the undergrad level.

Sagrika: Yeah, definitely.

I want to get through these questions; you have like a few minutes left! This question we touched on, so maybe we could just give a brief answer: “I'm trying to decide between a smaller liberal arts school and a larger, more STEM-focused school. Which do you think is better for med school acceptance?”

Rob: I don't think either. Again, that's something we did touch on: if you do well, it's not going to matter which one. It's really an idea of fit. What do you want out of your education? Do you want a more personalized, more intimate, smaller environment? Do you want to do research, not having to compete with the grad students?

Are you looking for the benefits of a larger university? Because there are tremendous benefits: larger communities, larger social networks, maybe larger alumni networks as well. Those people give back to the university. [Or,] “Hey, do you want to intern in my office for the summer? I went to the same university!” There's a greater connection. There may be more research opportunities than at the liberal arts school, but also from a social standpoint: larger student body. There are ways to meet more people and create a stronger connection of friends.

So there are definitely trade-offs. Neither is perfect. They're all great. [Choose] what works better for you – and don't worry so much about the next level! Focus right now on doing what you need to do to succeed at the high school level, and then look for schools that fit your interests and your strengths.

Sagrika: Exactly. I totally agree.

And then there’s, “What is the most important criteria to get into medical school: GPA or rigorous coursework, or volunteering related to medicine?”

Rob: Are we talking about from high school getting into college, or…

Sagrika: I think they're talking about college getting into medical school.

Rob: We've touched on that also.

As opposed to the high school level, the medical schools and the dental schools are telling you what the requirements are. Like, “These are the classes you need to take.” I don't want to gloss over it – you do need a strong GPA overall. But you especially need it in the required courses. So those are the biggies. [And] the MCAT or Dental Aptitude Test scores. Those are the biggest things.

Just like at the undergrad level, when you go on the common data set [of college acceptance figures] and you see the most important is strength of schedule and GPA, for medical school [and] dental school it's going to be GPA overall, GPA in the pre-med requirements, MCAT/DAT score. Then, in the “important” category [as opposed to “most important”] are going to be things like research, shadowing, volunteer, essay. (You do have to write a similar style essay you know when the time comes: “Why do I want to do this field?” and “Why do I want to practice medicine at your school?” It's that same kind of thing.)

That's basically what I would say.

Sagrika: Just to add on: I think one of the most important things that is overlooked is having clinical experience – which means (at that point) you want to have interacted with patients for a prolonged period of time at some point in your undergraduate career.

Rob: Yeah.

Sagrika: And they're looking for people who aren't just checking boxes – who aren't, like Rob said, doing it for a summer, and then doing something else. Doing it for long periods of time, and showing that you actually grew and learned something from clinical experience.

But this is all stuff that you're gonna do in college.

Rob: Yeah.

Sagrika: They said they actually do want to know what is important for undergraduate admission as well.

Rob: There's a similarity to all of this. It's like, “Do you really want to do this for a career?” And you may not know it fully at 18 or 17; you may know more [at] 21 or 22… but really do challenge yourself at this level. If you can take the challenging courses, and you can do it in a way that keeps your emotional wellness intact, then challenge yourself!

If you have a chance to do these [medical-based] kinds of extracurricular opportunities: [be] involved in clubs like Health Occupation Society of America (HOSA)… Get involved in these clubs! Do shadowing opportunities. Everything you can do to build a strong portfolio is really beneficial; it's helpful for the school, but it's also helpful for you to figure out: do you want to do this? Do you like this?

One of the things we talked about at the going-into-medical-school level: you may want to get a job after medical school. Again, we've talked about this. Get that clinical experience. Get money in your pocket. But also really figure out the day-to-day doing this for like a year or two: is this day-to-day something that makes you excited at the end of the day, or do you say, “I lost interest.” (If you lost interest, better to know it now than a couple years later!)

You can't really make that same commitment at the high school level, but by doing these more involved extracurriculars, volunteering, shadowing…  that will give you a little bit more perspective: is this the right field for you?

Sagrika: Okay, we have one last question before we close our meeting. It says, “Is it better to apply early decision to B.S./M.D. or to other top schools – [so] that you might have a better chance? As per the stats I've read, many schools do accept a higher number of applicants in ED, and applying to top schools regular decision is a lot harder. Should I take advantage of the increased acceptance rates [of applying ED] at competitive universities or B.S./M.D.?

Rob: That's a great, interesting question. The B.S./M.D. – the combined programs – are going to have a defined application cycle. They don't do it necessarily the same as the rest of the university. They may say to you, “This is when you have to apply.” Some may say November. Some may say January.

The thing you have to realize is – with the B.S./M.D.’s – they don't give early decisions, because you have to go through multiple levels of the application process. And as we said earlier, the first level is the undergrad admit – you know at you: are you a qualified candidate for their school?

If you pass that hurdle (which, for many of these schools, is a high bar… but let's say you pass that hurdle) now the medical school admissions or the dental school admissions group comes in and takes a look at it. If they think you're a strong candidate, they will go back to the undergrad Admissions and say, “Okay, this person now gets to come to the university to be interviewed.” About 10% of all the applicants make it to that level.

Now you have to show up, and you do a day-long interview. You go to the graduate school. You spend time in the clinics. You pick the brains of some fellow students – which, as we said earlier, is a tremendous thing. (Reach out to the pre-med societies at every school; these students are happy to share their experience with you!)

But going back to the B.S./M.D. (or B./M.D.) – this is a lengthy process! You will not find out early about these programs.

Some of the schools have restrictions on where else you can apply. So you have to do your research! Do the thing that's right for you. If you value the B.S./M.D. over an early decision application, then you may want to hold off on the early decision.

Ultimately, again, that's a personal decision. I think you have to go with that idea – as we said earlier – these programs have a one to two percent acceptance rate. If you think you have a better chance at a strong school, do you want to give that up for something that could be even harder to get at the end of the day?

Sagrika: I totally agree. From a stats perspective, it makes sense to apply to a normal program.

But it really comes down to: what do you want? It's not about, “What do you have the highest likelihood of getting into? It's about, “Where do you want to go?” If you get so sucked into, “Where will I get in?” though, you forget, “Do I even want to get in?” You have to go a step back and think, “Where do you actually want to go?” – and base it on that more than anything.

Rob: Yeah.

Sagrika: Just a few thoughts to close our meeting: if you don't want to be pre-med, you don't have to be pre-med! It's easy to get caught up in everything. If I were to tell my high school self something, it would be: “There are plenty of other options!” It's amazing. Our medical field has so many paths to helping people. And, in a medical sense, you could be a physician's assistant. You could be a nurse. You could do PT. You could do a PhD – a clinical PhD. There are so many options!

And med school is just so inundated with so many people that it's overly competitive! Anyone will tell you that: any doctor, any med school admissions person. Anyone will tell you it is overly competitive. If your end goal is to just work with patients, there are many ways to do that, and you don't have to do this extremely difficult path.

That being said, if this is what you want to do, then go for it. I just want to put that out there: we've been talking so much about how to do it, I want to say you don't have to do it!

Rob: Yeah. It [being a dentist or doctor]’s a wonderful life – and it may not be for everybody.

I think the big thing about when you see these programs or schools [is to remember] there are different pathways in life: academically, professionally… Do not worry if you don't get into one of these B.S./M.D.’s – or you do not apply to them. That is fine. There are some definite positives to them, but these are high-risk chances.

Definitely don't throw away other options. And even if you do have this passion to do this, don't feel that you have to rush your life [in] seven and eight years. Yes, the economics are beneficial for those seven years.

I know it's a cliché, but… you only get the chance at undergrad once. Take advantage of it. You’ll get to college, and you’ll see courses that you don't even have at your high school! You don't even know what to expect right now.

For those that are super passionate about it, and super successful at the high school level, there are these options. For everybody else, you've got options as well – in pre-med, out of pre-med. Don't worry about it. It's all going to work out. It may not be the exact thing you have set at this moment, but it is all going to work out well for you.

Sagrika: Definitely. Okay, thank you so much for attending and interacting with us – and we'll see you next time.

Rob: Take care, thanks.