Webinar Transcript: How To Build a College List
Elton Lin
Anthony Su: Good evening, everyone! We have a very exciting topic today for a lot of our rising seniors (current juniors) – and maybe some younger students to start thinking about – the college list process: what schools they should be looking at when they're thinking about the admissions process.
Today I have Dayna with me, who will be presenting the information and a little bit about our approach to researching schools: helping students build a college list that is well-balanced. Dayna, can you introduce yourself?
Dayna Meyer: Yeah. Hi everyone. Thanks for spending some time with us this evening!
I've been a consultant for the past 11 years now! Also, I did it all throughout my graduate school journey. (I received my PhD from USC in education in 2019, right before the pandemic hit!) I'm excited to talk a little bit more to help you build a college list – and answer any questions along the way, because I feel like there could be quite a lot of questions around this topic!
So thank you for joining us – I appreciate you.
Anthony Su: I'll give it to you!
Dayna Meyer: Okay, awesome.
Agenda
Finding best “fit” schools
Balancing your list
Categorizing schools
Case Study 1
Prioritizing your applications
Case Study 2
How can ILUMIN help?
Q+A!
Dayna Meyer: Let's go over the agenda a little bit – just so you know what's coming up during our discussion.
We're gonna talk, firstly, about what the “best fit” school is – and I think the quotations you'll understand a little bit more when we talk about it at more length.
Then we'll get into how to balance your list – so it's not too top heavy with all those “dream” and “reach” schools.
We'll look into how to categorize different schools based on different factors that you're thinking about: factors that are important to a student, that you would look at to create that list – whether it's “dream,” “reach,” “target,” or safety.”
Then we have a couple of case studies.
In between that, we'll look at how to prioritize your application
We'll see how we can help here at ILUMIN.
And any questions that we can go over at the end.
Finding “best fit” colleges
Dayna Meyer: Awesome. Let's start with finding the “best fit” colleges.
Getting to the “best fit” in quotations – I think “fit” is so subjective for every single person.
Everybody comes (who ends up working with me, or any other consultant) with a different priority. Sometimes it's “ranking.” Sometimes it's “program.” And sometimes it's something completely different – because there's also that social experience that's very much tied to the college experience! So it really just depends (across the board) what you're looking for.
Let's get into what different kinds of fits can look like for a student.
Common method: search by rankings
Best used to identify colleges for future research
BE CAREFUL:
Review the criteria
Check against old lists to see how colleges have moved
Review multiple lists to compare
Common sites:
Dayna Meyer: The most common method that people use to build a college list is to search by rankings. And rankings are… I'm not (to be totally truthful) a fan of rankings. But I also know that it's a society we live in – so I work with them.
It has a lot to do with alumni giving and how many donations are given to the school – so there are a lot of behind-the-scenes politics that go into making a ranking. Nonetheless, that's the world that we live in – so it is the first place that you usually start.
If you look above, you'll see some common sites that you can refer to. U.S. News is one of the largest ones, but these other ones are good too. (Times Higher Ed is probably a really informed one in terms of the research behind the school list.) I would say use all these interchangeably.
Some tips for what to be careful about: review the criteria for each of these rankings. Because, like I said, sometimes it's about how much money is donated. Does that impact what rating it gives? Sometimes. It really just depends on what you're looking for. (Sometimes alumni giving translates also to a large social network – like USC, where my PhD is from: huge social network. A lot of people want to go there because they have such an expansive Alumni network – which translates to getting internships and getting jobs.)
You have to think about how those rankings are created, essentially.
Each year the list changes, too – just slightly. You'll see different rankings for different schools. So it's always good to check against lists from last year versus this year. (I'd even say a good research practice is to go maybe five years ago, and then check the list up until now – if you're really into data.)
And again (like I said) review multiple lists to compare where the rankings are, and why. Like, “Is there a criterion in this ranking system that isn’t in that one?” And that could be something that you're interested in.
But usually you start with the rankings: that's what most of us do.
Anthony Su: I'll add a comment, because this was in the news this year: that Colombia fell many steps in its ranking. I think it was a statistics or a math professor that basically called out Colombia's ranking numbers to say, “You're pitching this particular student-to-staff ratio, and it seems like you're inflating this number!”
And also, we’re seeing a lot more schools opt out of rankings entirely. For example, Rhode Island School of Design is no longer doing rankings.
This is a good way to ballpark-estimate certain schools – but maybe not so helpful if you're going to go in to look for the details for each particular school, or the student experience, or what each university provides for each student.
Dayna Meyer: Agreed.
And then other schools (like the University of Florida) that were traditionally very low on the list have seen a rise in the ranks in the last few years. So you just never know what's going to get a college to the top of the list. You'll see as we go, too, that there are additional factors that you can consider, which end up translating to – kind of – where they would be on the list.
It's becoming more contentious as we go on with this particular practice. But it is a cultural practice that we engage in – so I don't think it's going away anytime soon. I think it'll continue to be contested as we keep going.
Common method: search by statistics
Best used to:
Identify colleges for future research
Filter out schools that are too Reach/Safe
Enter GPA and test scores into a search engine
Test scores are optional (one metric vs. two)
Remember: Admissions are holistic!
Dayna Meyer: Another method is to search by stats.
This is good if you're using it to identify colleges for future research, and you're filtering out schools that are too “reach,” or “safety.”
Stats are like what the students’ average GPA is. If you want to, you can use test scores – which are still optional at most schools (like SAT or ACT). This is where you can type in “Freshman incoming class of Yale” and see a student profile – and you'll see what the typical incoming GPA is. (If you want to do another metric, you can look at test scores; I think that that's helpful.)
We'll have a webinar on this later, but some of the data that we've seen during the pandemic is that even though tests are “optional,” most of the students that are getting into those top-tiered schools do have good tests. So if you are taking any kind of ACT or SAT, then definitely check that as a metric as well. (By and large, most students who are enrolling still have those test scores.)
And then these are some good places that you can go. It kind of crosses over with rankings; you can see, again, U.S. News and Niche. These are websites you can use – you can use them for multiple reasons (which is kind of nice) so you don't have to go to many different ones.
Then Naviance – which a lot of high schools use – has really cool scattergrams. And you can even compare early decision/early action admit rates at a school versus regular decision. I think that's pretty fascinating! If your school uses that, I would check it out – because there are some really good visualizations of the data on Naviance.
And again (like I said) test scores are optional.
Good reminder at the bottom that admissions are holistic. It's not just about your GPA or test score. It's also about your extracurriculars and your essays. There's a lot going on beyond just the statistics that they're looking at for admissions!
Common method: search by major
Best used as a starting point, OR to refine options
Rankings by major:
US News (Business, Engineering)
Poets and Quants (Business)
Search engine: “Which colleges offer my major?”
Double-check: Are you looking at undergraduate programs?
Strong grad programs can be indicators
Dayna Meyer: Another one that's good (to use to search) is major.
We have ranking stats by major – and this is good when I was saying, “What do you consider to be a good ‘fit’?” Some of my students come in wanting the best program for them – for their major. That's the number one important factor in how they create the list.
A lot of people use this as a starting point. I would say (from my experience) these are the two most common occurrences: either students looking to get into the school, and then the major’s the second, runner-up reason – or the major is the primary reason, and then getting into whatever school is secondary. It just depends… but that's usually what I see.
You can see rankings by major at these different websites, which are pretty cool. Anthony and I were looking at some of the Chronicle of Higher Ed data, and you can see how major translates into industry options – and where people are getting jobs. There are so many statistics based on what a major translates to – some good data out there. But you could start with these websites.
Another good search phrase is “which colleges offer my major?” And then you can look at Big Future. (Just double checking: are you looking at undergraduate programs? When you just type in, “Which colleges offer my major?” sometimes they take you to graduate school stuff – and if you don't know (when you're not checking it) you might accidentally think a program is offered at the undergraduate level, but it's just offered at the graduate level.)
I also work with grad admissions too, so I see the whole array of the admissions process. I would say if you see good grad programs, it's likely that the undergrad programs are going to be strong as well. There's usually a correlation there.
Common method: refine by cost
Net Price Calculators
Shortcut: College Scorecard
Western University Exchange: CA tuition in other states
Honors Programs
Find colleges with the highest merit aid
Safety schools with high merit aid rates → high likelihood of scholarships!
TIP: If you want to be eligible for most scholarships, you still need to fill out the FAFSA!
Dayna Meyer: Another fact that you can consider is that you can look by financial constraints: refine by cost. You can see net price calculators at places like the College Scorecard – and then you can look at different places to see how tuition would change depending on your residency.
If you're a California resident, you can look at places like the Western University Exchange – and you can see how that would translate to tuition in other states. International students usually pay triple the tuition rate – pretty much nationwide, any type of school. And if I'm not mistaken, out-of-state for a California resident might be double. (But don't quote me – because tuition changes every year, too! It's just getting more expensive.)
You could also look at different honors programs that are offered – and then you can look at different colleges with the highest merit aid. If your student gets really good grades and test scores – if they score really high on the PSAT – you might get offered more scholarship money.
Safety schools with high merit aid rates equal a higher likelihood of scholarships. I'll translate this into a real life example: for my students who do really well (4.0 and above) if one of their safety schools is University of Oregon, I've seen that school traditionally give out a $10,000 a year scholarship. So $40,000 merit aid! Because they know that the student is probably looking at other schools, and there's probably not a high chance that they'll attend that school. The way they entice high-achieving students is by giving out lots of scholarships.
And I'll say this too: there's nothing additionally that you have to do in order to be considered for that! Usually it's part of the admissions offer. There's not a separate application.
Last on the list is for you to fill out the FAFSA – so that you can actually receive those scholarships, if you choose to! A lot of people who aren't getting need-based financial aid think that they don't have to fill out the FAFSA. But I would suggest that you do it – because you can receive scholarships. And then, also, if you get any internships on campus, usually they want you to have the FAFSA filled out – so that the university can pay the student! It's a good thing to fill out.
It's an annual financial form that you have to fill out each year – so a bit of a headache there – but it becomes easier over time, when you're just filling in the same information each year. It comes out in October. You have until February or March to fill it out. It's something to definitely fill out if you're looking to get any kind of internship while you're on campus – or to be open to scholarships, upon receiving them based on admissions!
Merit-based aid
More than 40% of students at these colleges receive merit aid:
Olin College of Engineering
Trinity University
Sewanee (The University of the South)
Gonzaga University
University of Portland
Miami University—Oxford
University of Denver
Loyola Marymount University
Cooper Union
Savannah College of Art and Design
University of Puget Sound
Dayna Meyer: I thought this was a cool list: more than 40% of students at these colleges receive merit aid. (University of Oregon I don't think is even on here – so add that one to the list!)
But these are really good schools that give out a lot of aid.
Uncommon method: what will it take to get a job?
Hiring Factors by Relative Importance:
Internships (23)
Employment during college (21)
College Major (13)
Volunteer experiences (12)
Extracurricular activities (10)
Relevance of coursework (8)
College GPA (8)
College reputation (5)
Dayna Meyer: Here are less common methods. (Before we were looking at more traditional ways that people look at factors to consider how to build a list.)
Another factor to take into consideration is, “What will it take to get a good job?” This is a survey that was taken by employers – and they were talking about hiring factors. The researchers broke it down into the highest-rated factors (by relative importance for employers) upon graduating – and what they're looking for in the workforce.
As you can see, the two top highlighted features are internships and employment during college.
I have students that come to me and say they are doing biomedical engineering or biology, and their long-term goal is to be in med school. Then, possibly having an (undergraduate) school in the middle of nowhere doesn't really help them – because they want to have more opportunities to do hospital internships and things like that. They'll say, “I want to be closer to a large city.”
There are different factors that need to be considered for that. That would change the location of what schools they are looking at. That would change what proximity to large cities (to get internships) they would want.
Also being employed – because having an on-campus job is great, but sometimes you can get paid internships, or even internships that lead into paid jobs during undergrad. Again, usually you need to be a little bit closer to a city for that.
These are a couple of things that employers found important in the hiring process.
And then (as you can see) it's funny, because if you go all the way to the bottom, you have “college reputation” – which is like ranking. Which you’d think (I mean, I would have thought) it would be the top one – because of notoriety and things like that. But it actually matters not so much on this particular survey!
(I think that ranking still holds weight – especially depending on the industry. But it's just funny to see actual data on different factors that are considered important by employers!)
Anthony Su: I think a lot of schools are also taking note of this: adding internships and co-ops into their curriculum as well. Schools are trying to make this adjustment – to make it very easy for students to feature these things on their résumés when they're applying for jobs afterwards.
Dayna Meyer: That's true, because colleges have to shift with that too.
Best colleges for internship opportunities
Prioritizing internships/co-ops, these colleges become top 20 options:
Northeastern
Drexel
Berea College
U of Cincinnati
Duke University
Georgia Tech
MIT
Purdue University
Elon University
Cornell University
Agnes Scott College
Endicott College
Anthony Su: Here some schools where the co-op is really critical, or the internship is really critical – and helping students get that work experience.
Dayna Meyer: Yes. And as you notice, a lot of these – like Northeastern, totally in Boston – cityscape. Whereas a school like Dartmouth is in a very rural area – the town is the college! It would be a little bit harder, because you'd have to travel to get those kinds of opportunities, essentially.
[Another method:] best undergraduate teaching
Prioritizing academics/professors, these colleges become top 10 options:
Elon University
Brown University
Princeton University
Rice University
Boston College
Dartmouth College
Georgia State University
William & Mary
University of Maryland, Baltimore
University of Notre Dame
Dayna Meyer: We were looking at, “Where can I get a job?” but another factor that people care about is teaching. This is less commonly talked about… although when I was doing my PhD and working with a bunch of scholars all the time, we talked a lot about teaching – and, “Where are the good teaching universities?” Because a lot of professors like to send their kids to good teaching universities.
Which actually end up being a lot of liberal arts colleges. If you want to look at liberal arts colleges in general you can, too; this is just a fraction of the list of schools that prioritize academics and teaching with professors. These colleges came up as the top ten. (I was saying, for example, Dartmouth: maybe less proximity to internships, but on the teaching side – very strong!)
When you have a strong teaching curriculum, and then you have professors that care about connecting with the students, think how that translates to the future (because I'm always thinking about graduate admissions, too). Most likely they would form good relationships with their students, and vice versa: students with professors. That could translate to really strong letters of recommendation for grad school – which I think is becoming more and more important as our society progresses: with getting even more education beyond just the undergrad. So this ends up being a really important feature when you get to grad school: having those connections with professors in undergrad!
Uncommon method: what will it take to get rich?!?!
Prioritizing the highest-paid graduates, these become top-25 options:
Harvey Mudd College
Princeton
Babson College
Santa Clara University
UPenn
California Institute of Technology
Colgate University
Yale
Claremont McKenna
Stevens Institute of Technology
SUNY Maritime College
Colorado School of Mines
Dayna Meyer: And then this one (I love the exclamation-question): “What will it take to get rich?!?!” This is looking at prioritizing the highest-paid graduates – which I think is really fun data to look at, too… because it sometimes aligns with what you would think, and then it sometimes doesn't!
For instance, Colorado School of Mines: a good school to apply to for CS (computer science). But not necessarily the most desired one out of the bunch when you're first making a list (for most of my students). They end up getting there eventually (for a good “target” school, if they're a really good academic student) but, initially, it's not really seen as something desirable.
These are not even all 25. It’s another list that you can look at. (Getting back to major, too, you could see what students majored in, and then you can see how that translated to where they ended up – especially if they're in the public eye, now, doing technology and things like that.)
It's a fun research search to do, to see.
Uncommon method: how do I get into grad school?
Med School Admissions Factors:
GPA / course selection
Test scores (GRE, LSAT, MCAT)
Letters of recommendation from professors
Demonstrated commitment and aptitude (activities, academics)
Communication and people skills (interview!)
Personal qualities like selflessness, judgment, and compassion
Dayna Meyer: And I've been alluding to this – because (like I said) I think about graduate admissions, too – but I feel like it's an uncommon type of question right now. (I also guesstimate that, as we keep going, it will become more of a common question: “How do I get into grad school?” I think that we're going to see the train shift: from looking at just the four years of undergrad, to six to eight years – depending on if you do a masters or a PhD, or some other professional degree.)
But looking at grad school… If your long-term goal is to get into med school, you want to look at, “What do med schools look at when they're determining if you're eligible?” GPA becomes, again, something important. But also your course selection – because you have to make sure you take enough of the pre-req classes for med school in order to be ready.
Much like high school: you're taking all the classes you need to be either UC-eligible, or to be able to graduate from high school. It's a similar process; you're just doing it for med school. And then test scores: GRE, LSAT, MCAT. The LSAT is for if you want to practice law, MCAT is if you want to practice medicine. You need to know what kind of scores are good for that.
I don't know if the stat is still the same, but I remember one of Azusa Pacific University’s big marketing moves (to, basically, get students) was to say that they had a 100% attrition rate to med school! Don't quote me on that – because I don't know if it's an updated statistic – but I think that that's really interesting. They were using this idea, like: “if you want to go to med school, we will ensure that you get there with our curriculum.” I found that to be a really interesting point. (And it was very much before people were even thinking about grad school when they first got into undergrad!)
Then, again – like I was saying before – letters or recommendations from professors become very important in the graduate school process. If you can't get any good or strong recommendation letters, it can really impact your graduate school trajectory. (And I've been through that, too. It's a serious process!) It's important for high school… but I would say it's even more critical for grad school.
And then demonstrated “commitment and aptitude.” Again, you have to build that résumé – to show that you intend to practice this career your life: that this is something you're extremely interested in.
There are intense interviews. Not for every master's program – but if you're going on to med school, for sure! If you're doing any kind of PhD (or other professional degree), it becomes incredibly important. There are usually day-long interviews – so it's not just 30 minutes or an hour! You go and visit the campus and all the people you're going to be working with. And then just other good qualities, like if you're going to be a doctor, being selfless and non-judgmental and compassionate – and having good bedside manner – are good characteristics to have. They look for that in the interview as well.
Balancing & refining your list
Dayna eyer: Now we're going to get into how to balance and refine your list as you go – and then we'll show some case studies, too.
To how many colleges should I apply?
Factors to consider:
Limits from your high school
Limits on application platforms (for Common App: 20)
Cost!
Workload (ESSAYS!)
ILUMIN’s advice:
12–15 colleges!
(no fewer than 10; no more than 20)
Dayna Meyer: One of the questions I get a lot from my juniors-going-into-seniors (rising seniors) – basically when College season starts for us – is, “How many colleges should I apply to?”
There are some factors to consider:
I've had students where the high school limits how many you can apply to (because the counselor usually has to send a recommendation letter). I've seen schools cap that. Check with your school – they should tell you.
There are also limits on application platforms – like the Common App: you can only apply to 20 schools through the Common App. Which seems like a lot, but some of my students get really surprised by that – so it's a good point to highlight.
Another factor to consider is cost – because applications are also getting more expensive every year to apply. It could easily cost a couple thousand dollars if you're applying to 20 schools! So that could be something that you need to consider.
And then the workload. When we say “workload” (especially as consultants) we mean essays – because that's actually where the most time is spent when you are doing the application process: it's all of those essays you have to write!
Usually we say 12 to 15 applications are where it's at. And when I say “applications,” I just want to clarify: because the UC app is just one app for all the UCs. That's why I like to say “applications” – because I count all the UCs as one. (You're doing one app for all the schools.)
I would say 12-15 applications. Definitely no fewer than 10, and then no more than 20.
I've seen students do more than 20; I think by that time it becomes a time management issue – if you're going to be still doing rigorous courses your senior year, and do all the extracurriculars that you mentioned on your résumé! If you're really structured and organized, it's possible – but I think if you have a really good and balanced list, you should be in good shape with 12-15. Or up to 20 – but no more than that, because you'd probably be applying to a lot of “reach” schools. (From what I've seen, from the past decade of doing this.)
So yeah, 12-15. No more than 20, no fewer than 10.
How do I determine “dream,” “reach,” “target,” and “safety”?
DREAM Schools: colleges that are hard for everyone to get into!
<15% acceptance rate AND/OR
Your grades/scores are well below the averages
REACH Schools: colleges that you might get into
15–30% acceptance rate AND/OR
Your grades/scores are below the averages
TARGET Schools: colleges that you should get into
30–60% acceptance rate AND/OR
Your grades/scores are on par with the averages or just above/below
SAFETY Schools: colleges that you will almost definitely get into
60%+ acceptance rate AND/OR
Your grades/scores are above or far above the averages
Dayna Meyer: In terms of how to actually go about categorizing the list (like into “dream,” “reach,” “target,” “safety”) let's go over how we're defining these different categories – because I think it's important.
I actually didn't used to use “dream” as a category… but now I do – because the admit rates are just going down. Especially if you have an impacted major. So I think it's important to have the distinction between “dream” and “reach”.
How we're designating it is that (no surprise!) “dream” schools are ones into which, if I were an undergrad, it'd be hard for me to get. We consider that to be below a 15% acceptance rate. And that's with your grades being even at the average, these days. It's just a really small acceptance rate – even if you’re a 4.5 student, and things like that. It's a very low admit rate.
I think a lot of schools – like some of the UCs – are trending towards that. If I'm not mistaken, UC Berkeley's around maybe 15% now. It's getting more competitive each year.
And then “reach” schools: these are schools that you hope to get into. You do all you can to get into them. But it's still a low acceptance rate: between 15-30% – or your grades are below the average. (That's a really competitive pool as well.)
So we're saying less than 15% acceptance: “dream.” 15-30%: “reach.” And then we have “target” at the 30-60% range – and this is more like your grades are solid, and your test scores would be on par with the incoming freshman class profile. You'd look at it and you'd be like, “Yeah, my GPA is in line. My test scores are in line (or just slightly above).” And that should make up the bulk of your college list – because it's all these schools, right in the middle, that you plan to go to. (You hope to go to a “dream” or “reach,” and then you plan to go to a “target.”) So you want to make that the bulk of your list.
And then your “safety” schools – which I used to categorize as like 70% and above… but now, because it's so competitive, we're doing 60% and above. That's basically where your grades are way above the average of that school, and it's almost in your pocket: you can almost say, “Yes, I'm gonna be able to go to this school!”
Always good to have just a few of those – so that, if anything's going on with whatever the landscape of admissions is for that year, you just have backup plans – essentially.
Other factors affecting admissions chances
Stats are the starting point. These can bring you up or down a level:
Class ranking
In-state vs. out-of-state
UT Austin out-of-state acceptance rate is ~10%
UW Computer Science out-of-state acceptance rate is 4%
Popularity of college
Extracurricular resume + other subjective factors (teacher LORs)
Difficulty of major (impacted/capped majors)
Dayna Meyer: Like we were saying a bit earlier, stats are the starting point – and then these different things can bring you up or down a level.
What it means to bring you “up” or “down” a level is in the categorization: “dream,” “reach,” “target,” or “safety.” These things can impact that.
One is class ranking.
Another is in-state versus out-of-state. For instance, in Texas it's just harder if you're an out-of-state resident (not living in Texas). UT Austin out-of-state acceptance rate is like about 10%. For UW, for anybody who's applying to CS out-of-state, the rate goes down to 4%. If you were in that state we would probably bump UT to being “target” or “reach” – depending on where you land – but if you're a California resident, it's gonna go to “dream.” Same with UW computer science.
Major, too, impacts that.
The popularity of the college
And your résumé and other factors, like we were saying a little bit before: letters of recommendation.
It goes back to that holistic process: that it's not just one element that's going to get you in, but it's how all of the different parts of your application speak to one another – and how they take it in all together.
Also, like I just briefly said, your intended major can really change at what level you're placing a school on your list. An impacted major (CS is the top impacted major, I think – as we all know, sitting here) is gonna drastically bring down that admit rate for the college! And then if you have a capped major (which means limited space) that's also going to impact how easy it is to get into a major.
You might see your friend's daughter or son get into UC Santa Barbara with a history major, whereas your other friend’s kid had a biology major and they might have not gotten in – even if they had better stats! It really depends on major as well.
Selecting your major
Some majors are IMPACTED (higher requirements) or CAPPED (no space):
At UC Irvine, 50% of applicants selected 6 majors (out of 85 possible)
Consider niche alternatives or different pathways
Always provide a second-choice major
Differentiate yourself by showing how your interests overlap/intersect!
Show direction
Don’t use “undeclared” as a strategy
Dayna Meyer: And I'm glad we're talking a little bit about major. I think I've talked about this, but we can hit it again. If you don't know what “impacted” means, it really just means that people want the major more than they have room for. And then, when it's “capped,” it just means there's no more space.
A good example is UC Irvine: 50% of the applicants selected only six majors (out of 85 major options)! The person who was doing comparative lit and applied might have gotten into UC Irvine this year, but if you were in the impacted majors in STEM (or even business) it just could have been a waitlist response – or just a rejection.
So really major – I cannot stress that enough – can change how your list is made.
I have conversations with my students about considering alternative majors – and different pathways of getting to the same place. These days if somebody walks into my meeting and says, “I want CS,” I shudder just a little bit – because that path to getting there is becoming so competitive – too competitive, I think, for high school students. You have to be outstanding – and I mean outstanding – for that.
So I like to at least show students: “You can look at these majors, too.” Data science. Computer or information technology. There are so many different majors where you're taking classes in the CS department, but you're not designated as that major!
There are different Pathways (to which I would hopefully keep an open mind) to get to the same place.
On college applications, always provide a second choice major! (Not UC Berkeley, though – they don't allow you to choose a second one. But, for most schools, you choose a second choice major.) Think of it as your two shots to get in! If they can't give you admission to the first major… choose a major that might be less impacted for the second. (I have some students say, “Should I choose CS as my second major?” Probably not – because it's already impacted, and they're not going to give you your second choice major if it's more impacted!) Consider that major strategically – and see if there's one outside of the area where everybody's applying, to see if you get into the school and perhaps double major or minor (or something) later.
Differentiate yourself by showing how your interests overlap or intersect. What this means is more like that “holistic” procedure that they use for looking at your application. Have different parts of your application echo the other parts. Have your course selection echo your intended major. Have your extracurriculars echo being well-rounded but also focused in an area that leans towards your major.
And then, in the essays, you have another opportunity to write about why this major is interesting to you, and how you've learned a lot in X area. There are so many ways that they can echo each other. It leads to this final point of showing direction, and creating a narrative for how you want the admissions readers to experience your application. (I don't tend to tell my students to say “undeclared” as their first major, because it doesn't look like you have a direction, and they want to see a direction, actually.)
A note on test-optional/blind
Testing is a factor in your admission only if you choose to submit it. If you omit your score, you will not be at a disadvantage. It is optional!
GPA / Class Selection / Rigor = Most Important
Testing becomes another resume item or award
Submitting a score is not an advantage UNLESS it is a strong score (e.g. top 50% of admitted students).
Ex: DECA member vs. DECA International Champion
It doesn’t hurt but it doesn’t help much either
Dayna Meyer: A note about test-optional or test-blind schools: I said this a little bit earlier, but testing is a factor in your admissions only if you choose to submit it. Some schools (like MIT) are requiring test scores once again, but if schools are still doing “test-optional,” they technically cannot put you at a disadvantage if you don't submit it.
Like I said, the data shows that most of the students who are getting into these higher-tiered schools do have test scores to show. But it's important to know that you can still apply even if you don't have test scores – if it's “test-optional.”
“GPA/class selection/rigor most important”: what this means is that if testing is optional, they can't make it the primary element that they're looking at for admitting somebody! They're saying: “Is your GPA good? Is the level of APs right? (Community college courses, APs, honors classes.) Are you taking challenging courses?” That's what “course rigor” means.
I always tell my students that if they're not scoring the average (or above average) for a particular university, don't submit it. Only if you're hitting the average (or above average) would you like to submit the scores. Because the cool thing about it being optional still (for a lot of schools) is that the test score should help you, not hurt you! You only want to really submit if you have the stats for that school, or above. (If you're applying to Stanford, you don't want to send a 1400 to Stanford, right? That doesn't necessarily help them consider you as a competitive applicant.)
How many reach/target/safety schools should I have?
The majority of your colleges should be in the TARGET category
Maximizes your effort
Gives you flexibility of choice in the spring
Your list should look like a bell curve
Ex: 14 colleges total, 8 should be target, 3 reach/dream, 3 safe
Flexible if you are a stellar student (fewer safeties)
Less flexible with lower stats (fewer reaches)
Dayna Meyer: How many “reach,” “target,” and “safety” colleges should you have?
Again, the majority of your colleges should be in the “target” category. Essentially, it should look like a bell curve – low on “reach” (and “dream”), and then it goes up to that bell (at “target”), and then down to the “safeties” – just like that.
So if you're doing 14 colleges total, 8 should be “target,” 3 should be “reach”/”dream,” and 3 should be “safety.” so just generally speaking it's
When I first meet students, it mostly leans top-heavy. Then the “target” category is very small. And sometimes the “safety” category is not existent! That's when I really work with students – to balance that list.
If you are a really good student, you can have fewer safeties. And if you have lower statistics, then you should have more safeties – and fewer reaches. So it really just depends. (But that's why working with a consultant is good: because they have enough years of expertise doing this, so that they can tell you what a good list looks like. It's helpful to know: “Is this a good list? Should I add any more targets or safeties?” Have a conversation with your consultant about it.)
Case study: MC
Dayna Meyer: Okay, MC for a case study. Let's see what we have.
Preferences and profile: MC
3.9/1490
Engineering
Primary activities: music, tutoring, research project, sports, robotics
College preferences:
West or East Coast
Large college
Undergraduate research
Music program
Fun/outgoing/driven students
Dayna Meyer: This student is very interesting: 3.9/1490. The 3.9 could be weighted – so this is not particularly the most competitive… but it's not not competitive, either (depending on the school).
Engineering intended major. Primary activities are music tutoring, a research project, sports, robotics. And the college preferences are West or East Coast (location, again, could be a factor), a larger college that has undergraduate research, and has a music program (to continue doing music). And then, basically, really spirited students. That was what the student wanted.
Original list (from student)
Johns Hopkins
Stanford
Duke
Georgia Tech
UCSD
University of Pennsylvania
UC Berkeley
Harvard
University of Michigan
Rice
Cornell
Boston U
UC Davis
University of Wisconsin
Case Western
CMU
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Northwestern
Columbia
UCLA
Cal Poly
Santa Clara University
Arizona State
Top-heavy
Orange colleges all have <20% acceptance rates to start with
STEM impacted at UC, CSU
Public colleges: lower % of OOS students, higher standards on STEM
ONE safety school (ASU)
Additional factors: GPA/SAT on par, resume not focused/nothing extraordinary, major competitive
“Typical” list of colleges for a STEM student to start with (high ranking/reputation)
So when they walked in the door, like I was saying, from the student it's very top-heavy. As you can see, all these in orange (Johns Hopkins down to UCLA) have a less than 20% acceptance rate. We were saying if it's less than 20% it could fall into that “dream” or it can fall into that “reach” category.
Also, they want engineering. You have to consider the major too. STEM majors are usually impacted. (Again, “impacted” means that there are too many students wanting that particular major, and not enough room; the demand outweighs the supply.) In a lot of schools, bio, business, and engineering are all impacted majors. So it's going to be more competitive to get into those majors.
So for public colleges: higher standards on STEM, lower percentage of OOS (out-of-state) students. That's another thing we considered – like UW having a 4% computer science non-resident admission rate. That's very low. That's lower than some of our Ivies!
And then one safety school – with “Arizona State” at the bottom.
Additional factors were GPA and SAT on par, but the résumé not focused on any particular direction. Like I said, you have to show with your résumé that you're well-rounded. MC had music and things like that, but then there was one research project (in a robotics Club) and not anything else that was very heavy engineering-focused.
That was a hit to their overall college list. The more competitive the school, the more they're going to assume that your GPA is stellar – and then they look at your extracurriculars. That's where it can hurt the student.
This is a pretty typical list when a student brings us a list. And then we help them balance it out.
Updated List
ASU
Boston U
Cal Poly (+ other CSUs)
Georgia Tech
Johns Hopkins University
Santa Clara University
Case Western
Ohio State
U Arizona
UCLA
UC Berkeley
UC Davis
UC Irvine
UCSD
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
University of Maryland, College Park
University of Michigan -- Ann Arbor
University of Washington, Seattle
University of Wisconsin -- Madison
19 colleges (15 apps) vs. 20 apps
Added safeties (Ohio, UA, other CSUs)
Removed Ivies (kept one Dream)
Added additional options (UMD, UW)
Applying early to UIUC (priority consideration) + safeties (ASU, OSU)
Bell curve (most colleges in target range, verging on reach)
This student will have choices!
Dayna Meyer: Here's an updated list. As you can see, way more balanced. 19 colleges, 15 apps (because the UC app, again, is one app for all the UCs).
We added more safeties, as you can see: like Ohio, UA, and then other CSUs, which are California State Universities. We removed a lot of Ivies – but we kept one dream school, of course, because I think it's important. I don't want to be out here killing dreams of students – because that's not what business I'm in! But I'm also about being pragmatic and balanced – and I think it's good to have these kinds of conversations, because I think it makes you ultimately successful for the future.
Then we added additional options like UMD and UW. And then applying early to UIUC – which is good. We don't have enough time to get into it, but early action schools (or, if you're really passionate about one school, early decision; just remember that's financially binding) are good ways of breaking up the college list too: determining, “I'm gonna do these early. I'm gonna do these regular.” And then seeing which ones out of those are reaches or targets too.
We have the bell curve: most colleges are in the “target” range, and some of them are verging on reach. The oranges are the “dream”/“reach” category for the student, and then the yellow was just to show that we added some safeties: ASU, other CSUs, Ohio State University of Arizona. (More safeties were added because the previous list only had one safety – it was mostly orange, and then one safety and a few targets!) All these non-highlighted ones are in the “target” range – and that's what we want to see, because it creates that bell curve list, which is way more balanced.
Prioritizing your applications
Dayna Brown: Okay, prioritizing applications. (I call June the “kickoff season” for college apps – because I think utilizing the summer is really important!)
Start with core applications
The UC System: 4 PIQ Essays
Cover Leadership, Creativity, Major/Interest, and Community
Search your school list to see how many prompts match!
Essays can easily overwhelm students. A school list of 10 has 25+ essays!
Common App Personal Statement
Should be completed at least one week before Early Decision/Action deadlines
ED1 and EA schools
1 ED, at least 3 EA schools
Which ED should you apply for?
Dayna Meyer: Say you have your list built. Then, where do you start?
Most California residents are applying to the UCs, so I say start with the UC app – because there are four essays, 350 words each. A majority of the time for college apps is spent on doing college essays. Say you have 15 schools. It's going to take at least 5-6 months to do all of your essays and things like that! Not for every school… but to apply to all those schools is going to take that amount of time.
I just want to point out: the essays can easily overwhelm students. And a school list of 10 can have 25+ essays – so imagine a school list of 20! That can have 50-60 essays, easily.
If you're smart, you can start reusing pieces of writing – as you have a big body of writing you can choose from. But, at the beginning, it's a lot of writing – because you have nothing yet!
A lot of my students are very surprised at the amount of writing time (and just writing) it takes to complete college applications! But if you can't articulate yourself in writing, that's a critical piece of your application that's going to be missing for the admissions reader.
So I usually have my students start with the UC app. Simultaneously they start the Common App statement – which is a 650-word, single essay that's attached to every Common App school you apply to.
Probably this set should be completed at least one week before the early action and early decision deadlines.
I'm telling my students to do as much in the summer as possible – so that by the time they enter senior year, we're not just starting writing all these essays, and we actually use the summer effectively!
Let’s talk about ED1 (early decision 1 – which is also due early) and EA (early action) schools.
For ED there’s a caveat: make sure you're super passionate about the ED school! And, parents, it is a financially binding contract! It's basically having the student commit to a school before they even know if they're accepted. But if they are accepted, you have to rescind all of your other applications to all the other schools (without even finding out if you get in). It's a more serious relationship with the school. (Although it is usually a celebratory event – because it’s to a lot of the more competitive schools that students do ED. So you're usually super excited if you get into your ED school!)
For early action (EA) schools, there's no binding contract – so do as many EA schools as possible! Because then, if you get your results back and you're not liking what's happening, or you want to apply to more schools, you still have the regular admission round to apply – and you still have time to do those essays. And if you want to do ED2 to a school, you can do that too – because you'll know early enough.
“Reach” applications
These require a lot more preparation!
Examples of these applications include:
University of Michigan
Notre Dame
Brown
University of Chicago
Specialized programs such as UPenn M&T
Dayna Meyer: I don't think it comes as a surprise, but there's just a lot more preparation for these apps. A lot of them have a video component. Sometimes they have interviews – depending on the school. Some of these applications (like University of Chicago; I went to grad school there)… I’ll just say undergrads are like mini grad students running around at UChicago! The application pretty much reflects that: there are (if my memory serves) two essay questions – but they're not capped at any word limit. That's another reason why a lot of students like to work on UChicago with me: because they're like, “How much writing should I do if there's no word count?” Then there's a 90-second (to two minutes) video that you have to upload. They have an interview. It's quite a bit that you have to do to prepare for more competitive school applications, to say the least!
Major deadlines to remember
Interviews
Cornell: Architecture, School of Hotel Administration, Art
Brown University
Princeton
MIT
Trinity College
Wake Forest University
Financial Aid
FAFSA opens Oct–Feb; colleges have various deadlines
Dayna Meyer: And then major deadlines to remember: interviews. Sometimes interviews happen before you submit your application. You want to be on the lookout if that's the policy! (Sometimes you have to submit the application first in order to get invited to an interview.) Either way, it's important to see what type of interview it is, or when it is – because you should prepare for those.
And then (I mentioned it earlier) filling out the FAFSA anywhere between October and February is important if you get scholarships, or you want to do internships once you're on campus.
Basic Timeline
ED/EA deadlines vary
October 15th – December 1st
For most schools, November 1st
UC deadline: November 30th
Rolling Admissions
Cannot choose, unlike ED/EA
Regular Deadlines vary
Liberal Arts colleges / Art programs with portfolio samples
Dayna Meyer: I've seen ED or EA deadlines start anywhere as early as October 15th – but it could be November 1st, November 15th, December 1st… It really just depends. But it's usually in November you'll see the ED and EA deadlines.
The UC deadline is habitually and forever November 30th. That won't ever change – or at least right now!
And then there are rolling admissions. It's either Arizona State or University of Arizona: you apply, then you get your results back very quickly if you got in. I tend to see that more for “safety” schools. It’s just something to be aware of.
Regular deadlines vary.
Some liberal arts colleges and arts programs want portfolios – so if you're interested in applying to those kinds of schools, you should definitely take a look. Especially if you're a junior right now, going into the summer – maybe after AP exams, or after finals, check out last year's application. Chances are it'll be a similar one when they release what's going on for this year.
Strategizing the application season
What does ILUMIN recommend? Example timeline tasks:
September, Common App
October, ED/EA Deadlines
November, UC Nov 30th
December, Final push!
Where can you find this information in an easy-to-read document?
Common App Website: School Master PDF
Third Party platforms (Niche, US News)
ILUMIN Database
Dayna Meyer: What do we recommend? Again I'm going to kick the Common App deadline from September to July! If you're starting in June, get through with that in July/beginning of August.
Finish everything a month beforehand. If you have early deadlines, finish in October. Finish your UCs in the summer – at the latest, early November. December becomes, “I have finals, but also I'm trying to finish all of my other applications!” It can get chaotic.
I would say try to streamline as much as possible: use the summer effectively.
Where can you find this information? The common app website is great. And then there are also U.S. News and Niche. And there's also our database. We help our students organize that.
Case study: Jenny
Dayna Meyer: And then we have another case study – but I know we're out of time.
Anthony Su: We can quickly go through this, but I don't know if we'll have time for Q&A at the end. Of course, you can always reach out to us.
Preferences and profile: Jenny
3.95/ACT 35
Computer Science and Business
Primary activities: Robotics, Model UN, VR Internship, programming summer programs, community service
Dream School: University of Pennsylvania M&T
Main Problem? Juggling too many activities with no time to develop.
Dayna Meyer: Another case study with Jenny. UPenn dream. 3.95, ACT 35. Pretty good, right? But her major is CS and business – two of the most impacted majors!
Her primary activities were robotics, model UN, a VR internship, programming summer activities, and community service. Compared to the last case with MC, more focused activities based on major – so that's actually a good thing.
Her dream school was UPenn M&T. But the main problem with this profile is just juggling too many activities with no time to develop! For instance, this was great – that she was starting to carve out an interest in an area (say, like VR)… but then there are just many different programs, many different kinds of community service. It wasn't all building on top of each other.
Jenny’s progression
Built a school list
Categorized her essays
Spotted any experience gaps
How I prepared my student for the 4 UPenn essays
Understand who they are looking for
Close-knit community, entrepreneurship, innovation
Projects!
How we planned our essay roadmap
Managed 15 schools and specialized programs
How we overlapped our essays to save time and effort
UC essays!
Dayna Meyer: To help her, we built a school list. We categorized her essays. And we spotted the experience gaps (which was leadership, if I remember correctly). And then just focusing a little bit more in one area.
And she got prepared for the four UPenn essays – to understand who they were looking for. She talked about being part of a close-knit community, her interest in entrepreneurship and innovation, and all the projects she did.
A way to balance being involved in so many activities is to write about them – so the admissions reader can see the deeper meaning that they had, and the impact that they made on her. The essays become even more critical for sharing when you have an extremely long list of activities!
To manage her 15 schools and specialized programs… I like to map it: starting in June to (let's say) December – and basically grouping them by twos. Work on (just) two apps at once, because it's just more manageable for the student – especially when they're doing other things.
And then we overlapped essays – like I was saying, start with the UC essays and do the Common App essay at the same time. When one app finishes, switch out for another app – and all the essays for that app.
(I would say that. But that's also consultant-dependent, and based on how the student works, specifically. That's what we did with this case.)
How can ILUMIN help?
Personalized interviews to determine preferences
In-depth research on potential colleges, programs, and majors
Assessment of chances for admission
Help with cutting and refining list
Plan for attacking college applications/essays
Individualized guidance throughout application season
Dayna Meyer: Again, thank you so much for spending time with us. If you need any extra help, don't hesitate to schedule a free consultation. (I could tell you what I didn't tell you!)
So thank you so much, everybody; I know it was a lot of information coming at you fast!
Anthony Su: Yeah, we went through a lot today. I really appreciate everyone who could join us for the full time. Again, feel free to reach out for a free consultation.
Thank you, everyone. Have a good rest of your day.
Dayna Meyer: Thank you. Have a good night.